2/12 link:csua.org/u/5zk (sorry, you gotta register now)
Most Americans believe President Bush either lied or deliberately
exaggerated evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction
in order to justify war, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News
poll. ... The survey found that while nearly seven in 10 think Bush
"honestly believed" Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, 54 percent
thought Bush exaggerated or lied about pre-war intelligence. ... In a
head-to-head matchup, Kerry beat Bush, 52 percent to 43 percent,
among registered voters polled by the Post.
\_ Head-to-head matchups always look like that at this stage. Kerry
is still the generic "other" candidate at this point. Once voters
get a chance to learn more about him he'll drop like a rock. This
happens at every election. Is this your first?
\_ I wonder how many people believe, as I do, that Bush lied, but
that the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do anyway(
albeit 10 years overdue.)
\_ why dont' we invade North Korea, then?
\_ People keep saying this, and it sounds stupid every time.
North Korea has more than a million troops, artillery trained
on Seoul, lots of poison gas they have been testing on humans
for a decade, and tacit support from China, which could
suddenly turn very much less tacit in case of an invasion.
North Korea is the most fucked up thing in the world today,
but there is little we can do about it.
\_ don't forget, they've got nukes
\_ Isolating North Korea is just as stupid as sanctioning
Iraq. All the surrounding nations know that the best
way to deal with North Korea is to help them open up
to the rest of the world rather than being unnecessarily
antagonistic towards it.
\_ It's tricky with the state sponsored terrorism and
lies and general bad attitude they've always had.
Not to meantion it has traditionally pissed off
the south. Don't think it hasn't been tried.
(Carter anyone?) Read "The Two Koreas" Oberdorfer
and come back.
\_ Carter? But that was when the Soviet Union still
exist, and when China is still truly commie.
These days, even China is encouraging N.Korea
to open up. It's time to try again.
\_ China is no different today. It's still a one
party dictatorship. China is still a tightly
controlled and closed country. They're not the
poster boys for opening up.
\_ what have you been smoking? china is
following the classic path to prosperity
and open society followed by all the esteemed
US allies like japan, sk, taiwan, spore,
etc. - open economy up first while
retaining authoritarian rule, do that
for like 20 years, then go for democracy.
\_ Nukes and Japan don't mix. Well, not anymore....
\_ They mixed quite well last time.
\_ I think WMD was one of several things they had to choose from to
justify the invasion. The intel was wrong and they got burned.
I never really cared either way what WMD Iraq had. I have always
believed that to have left Hussein in power after the first GW
was painfully stupid so kudos to anyone who finally got rid of
the vicious evil psycho bastard. The rest is white noise.
\_ No, GWHB was right not to destroy Hussein during GW1. The
mistake was not following up afterwards when Saddam started
chemming his own people. That could have been justified and
probably created Kurdistan. Nation Building is hard.
\_ Why do you believe it was right? I think it was horrible
that we/he encouraged a revolt and then let them get
slaughtered. That one act caused more hatred and mistrust
(and rightly so) than anything else we've fucked up in the
area in decades. I'm pro-Kurdistan if they'd give up the
anti-Turkey terrorism.
\_ I know when this thing first got started I had no problem with
the "getting serious" on Saddam's ass. And it seemed to be
working. But then there was the buildup and rush to war that
didn't make sense at just that time, except Bush had already
started the buildup and was going in no matter what. So that
whole situation didn't make sense, and it hurt US credibilty,
and probably has cost us more in money and lives than need be.
\_ There's no such thing as 'credibility' in the international
world. Only power counts. Military and economic power are
the source of all diplomatic power. Nice guys finish last.
Peace with honor and all that, eh?
\_ Which explains why so many nations with large armies and
economies are beating down the US's door to help out in
Iraq AND the UN-sanctioned invasion of Afghanistan.
\_ Why should they? It behooves them to let us spend our
troops and cash which weakens us which makes them
relatively strongly which is the ultimate goal of any
country. Anyway, there are no other countries with
large armies and vibrant economies to help out. It was
all for show the first time and we demonstrated that we
didn't need the dog'n'pony show the second time if they
didn't want to play along. The United States has gone
beyond Super Power status. No nation has ever had such
incredible military, economic, cultural, or diplomatic
might and influence over the rest of the world. Rome is
dinky and provincial by comparison. If this country
falls it can only happen from within or through an act
of God such as a plague which causes uncontrollable
social strife.
\_ Look, I agree that Bush fucked it up. I'm just saying
that between Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr., doing
nothing in Iraq but slowly killing them by sanctions
was a totally unacceptable course of action.
Also, while I'm neither a neocon nor a republican, I agree
strongly with the neocon position that drastically
changing the balance of power in the middle east is in the
best interests of America and the rest of the world and
that it's long overdue.
\_ only way to do so is to install an American-friendly
dictator in Iraq. We's done that in Iran and the
balance of power shifted in other way. From balance
of power point of view, support establishment of Palestine
would do more to shift balance power in our favor,
reduce the cause for anti-americanism, and estblish a
safer region for our energy supply.
\_ And lead to the destruction of the only democracy in
the middle east which we're just not willing to do.
\_ Invasion of Iraq is bad idea. There are better means to
influence and change Iraq and the Middle East. Military
invasion is too costly, and the US military is now tied
down there for an extended period, and budget deficit is
shooting through the roof. The problem with Americans is
that they play too much shoot'em up video games. Only problem
is in the real world the game doesn't end after blasting away
the bad guys. Invasion of Iraq and getting rid of Saddam is
easy and quickly attained, but the real task is nation building,
and US has a crappy record of nation building. Short-term
national interest and influence of special interest groups
usually get the upper-hand over what is in the best
interest of the nation and people we are supposedly trying
to help. Only thing we can do is keep on attacking the
Bush admin and the following Kerry admin to keep them on the
right track as opposed to capitulating to the evil side of
US Imperialism.
\_ The Kerry admin? You were doing really well until you got
silly at the end. If you had done this straight instead of
turning it into a partisan rant you would have been more
convincing. "US Imperialism" isn't what you think it is.
The thing other countries fear most in the long run is not
our military, but our culture. They all know we're not going
to just take over the world like the Romans conquering every-
thing in sight. But our culture is something that easily
spreads through tv, radio, movies, and multinational corps
using highly advanced advertising techniques that their people
aren't used to and can't ignore as well as we can. *That* is
where we're truly conquering the world and they know it. The
military thing is just the standard ancient bit about securing
resources. Romanization took many generations in conquered
territories and often didn't stick while costing the Romans
untold wealth to fund their endless military campaign. But
Americanization actually generates wealth while conquering
other cultures. It can be a bit slower but it is unstoppable
and they all know it. *That* is what the Muslim fascists are
fighting against and why they hate us. That is why we can
never make peace with them. They see our very existence as
a threat to their continued existence.
\_ Um. The US has a crappy record of nation building? Wtf are
you smoking Mr. Chicom troll? US basically built all of the
western post WWII world from scratch. Its successes include
modern Western Europe and Japan. The successes of your
favorite country China include a broken off independent
Taiwan, and the happy amusement park full of gulags and gas
chambers that is North Korea.
\_ Are you on drugs? Western Europe nations have a long
history of democratic institutions, highly educated
population and strong industries stretching back
decades before WWII. It's a matter of putting things
back together as opposed to starting out from nothing.
It also shares cultural heritage with the US. Finally,
WWII wasn't started by the US. We intevened when
we were attacked, whereas in Iraq, we started the war
to destroy non-existent WMD. This is in contrast to
Afghanistan where we justifiably invaded because that's
where Osama is hiding. The general principle should
always be to set a good example, and to use soft power
to influence and cajol, and to only use the military
when there is an imminent threat. As for your chicom
name calling, let me put it this way: calling me a
chicom is as silly as calling Bush Jr. a Vietnam War
war hero.
\_ I think this statement should be modified. NO ONE
has a "good" record of nation building. The US has
a realitively good one, with places like S. Korea
and the phillipines under its belt. All of western
Europe has a terriable one. I think it's just a
bad idea in general.
\_ I don't disagree with you. Some questions for
the two examples of successful nation building
you have given: How many decades were SK and
Philippines ruled by dictators after US "interven-
tion"? How long did it take for SK to climb out of
poverty? When will that happen for the Philippines?
How many people were killed by the dictators
in say island of Cheju? Nation building is best
done by the people of the nation itself, perhaps
with some soft power encouragement from the US.
\_ The interesting question is not "when" or "how
long" but why did SK crawl out of poverty? The
answer is they opened up and started trading with
us and joined the West. The rest of the world
will remain a shithole until they recognise the
failure of their current system and westernise.
\_ Nah, it seems that you haven't realized, but
the question has always been what is the
best way to make them join us. And then
there is another question which is whether
we really are trying to help them join us
or just catering to our self-term interest
or trying to build another british empire. |
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