Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:February:10 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2004/2/10 [Transportation/Car] UID:12183 Activity:nil
2/9     Got a parking ticket cuz I didn't have a front license plate. My
        bumper doesn't have any holes, can I simply drill into the bumper
        and nail in my plate?
        \_ I thought it was only illegal to DRIVE without plates, not park
           without one.
           \_ Yeah now prove to the judge that you got to that parking lot
              via tow truck.  Stupid clown, the world doesn't work like that.
        \_ Unfortunately no matter what the car you must have a front plate
           in california. There are very few exceptions to this (other than
           motorcycles). For any car there is some sort of mounting kit.
           You may need to call a dealer and ask for the parts department.
        \_ Take it to a judge and beg.
        \_ Check with DMV.  It might be legal to put inside the car on your
           dashboard.
        \_ Depending on your car, there's sometimes other mounting
           options.  I've seen front bumper mounts where they drilled on
           the underside of the front bumper, so if they ever take
           off the front plate there won't be any visible holes.  Then
           they just used a special bracket.  If you don't care, then
           you should be able to get a front mounting bracket from
           whoever manufactures your car.
           \_ but who cares what your bumper looks like when you take off
              the plate since it is illegal as the op has found out
              \_ It might be legal in other states.
              \_ a new buyer might be willing to take the risk.
        \_ alright so I went to the dealer and they want to charge $50
           for buying the plate, and more if I want them to install it.
           BTW my front bumper doesn't have any pre-drilled holes or anything
           like that. So given that I'm kind of short on money, can I
           just drill into the bumper with any drill and screw the plates on,
           hoping the bumper material will hold the screws? Thanks.
           \_ If you care about the value of your car, then it is worth
              spending $ to professionally mount the plate holder.
2004/2/10 [Uncategorized] UID:12184 Activity:nil
2/9     I turned on the stove with a new empty stainless pan on it by mistake
        and when I realized that, I erred again by pouring cold water into the
        pan.  Now it has that brownish layer on the surface.  What is the
        chemical composition of this layer and is it harmful?  If not I would
        rather leave it as it is.
        \_ next time put a nice tbone steak on it instead, leave for 2 minutes
           \_ You are kidding me, right?  Heating won't get rid of the oxide.
              \_ wow, could you have misread that any worse?
        \_ It's no big deal.
        \_ If you're really set on getting rid of the brownish layer,
           try Barkeeper's Friend, but follow the directions or you
           might mar the finish.
2004/2/10 [Finance/Shopping, Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:12185 Activity:kinda low
2/9     I'm planning to go to New Zealand at the very end of December. Can
        you recommend a local (Bay Area) travel agency?
        \_ Why bother with a travel agency?  I've never understood this.
           \_ They can often get you better fares since they have
               allocations of cheap tickets long after you cannot buy them
               retail.
                \_ Good luck getting cheap tickets to new zealand for the
                   end of December.
        \_ I got good prices from Air New Zealand's web site for my Nov.
           trip.  Dec is more, but you should at least try there and make
           sure you can't get the ticks there cheaper than through an agent.
           But they do kinda spam the address I gave them.  -crebbs
           \_ ANZ has a $999 roundtrip special running until Nov. to celebrate
              adding SFO to their route, but no specials after that.  I'll
              keep an eye on them, though, thank you. --OP
        \_ Don't forget to bring your ozone layer.
           \_ At least I don't have to bring my own Hobbit clothing:
              link:csua.org/u/5xe (jpg)
2004/2/10-12 [Industry/Jobs] UID:12186 Activity:nil
2/9     A rare opportunity! WebFeat, a start-up provider of patent-pending
        Knowledge Prism technology for academic, public, corporate and
        government libraries currently has a position for a Software
        Development Engineer. see /csua/pub/jobs/webfeat
        \_ So, what, you sell shitty European automobiles over the web?
        \_ More buzzwords than you can shake a stick at!
           \_ Is the stick fully buzzword compliant?
        \_ "Knowledge Prism technology"?
          \_ Maybe marketroidian for 'data mining'?
             \_ Just like on Startrek where everything is stored in data cubes.
                Beam me up!
2004/2/10 [Transportation/Car] UID:12187 Activity:nil
2/9     Thanks for the car accident advice.  I forwarded the long list of
        suggestions.
        \_ Wow, the motd actually helped someone.
           \_ Coincidentally, my co-worker was being driven by a friend on
              the freeway last night, and they skidded out of control as
              well (avoiding object on freeway), ending up wrecking on the
              median.  A car behind them picked them up.  Shortly thereafter,
              another car in the #1 lane crashed into the wrecked car, sending
              flying metal and glass everywhere.  Everyone's fine, except
              for some sore/stiff muscles, and the friend in this case
              happened to have non-cheap insurance. -op
              \_ remind me not to hang out with you
                \_ ??
                  \_ mild humor hint: it's too dangerous.
2004/2/10-11 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:12188 Activity:moderate
2/10    Is it me or is rpm's whole dependency system totally fucked?
        Installs are failing because of alleged dependencies on other
        rpm's that I know I have, -force isn't overriding this...
        any suggestions?
        \_ It isn't you.  You can try removing and reinstalling newer or
           required versions (as appropriate) of the things you're depending
           on, or (and no this isn't a troll) move to a system that doesn't
           use rpm such as debian or a non-linux system, or you can compile
           and install from source by hand the way we used to do it.
           \_ Speaking of moving to another system, has anyone used gentoo
              lately?  Is it usable?  Does it feel like it'll stick around?
              --scotsman
              \_ FWIW one of the devs at my company goes into religious fits
                 of ecstasy everytime he has a chance to say the magic word,
                 "gentoo".  I've never used it though.
        \_ RPM has a really screwed up dependency system, esp. the way that
           it figures out what files it thinks your code depends on (building
           RPMs that work on multiple versions of RPM based distros is a
           PITA). The only think that I've seen that does a good job of
           handling the rpm dependencies is apt-rpm:
                http://moin.conectiva.com.br/AptRpm
           Other than that you can try to use the --nodeps and --force options.
        \_ i had a corrupt DB once, so also try "rpm --rebuilddb"
2004/2/10-13 [Academia/Berkeley/Ocf, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:12189 Activity:low
2/10    The ASUC Elections Council is now accepting applications for the
        position of Technical Coordinator! see /csua/pub/jobs/ASUC
        \_ Heh, the odds of a technically clued student/person getting
           this job are about zero.  It is ASCU, afterall.
           \_ Nope, it's ASUC.
           this job are about zero.  It is ASUC, afterall.
           \_ Actually, I know the Election Council folks.  They're honest,
              and they know when they don't know something and need to ask for
              help.  I also have some insight into this matter that you don't.
              They'll probably do okay. -dans
              \_ insight?  so you know who the pre-chosen candidate is and
                 they just need a few warm bodies to fill out the roster to
                 make it look clean and legal?
                 \_ No, I put together the folks from the CSUA and the OCF
                    that made this happen last year, and defacto did this job.
                    If I say ``This candidate is an idiot, don't hire him/her,
                    they will take my advice.''  The original comment
                    indicates a complete and utter lack of knowledge of how
                    the ASUC works.  While the ASUC does lots of stupid things,
                    not everyone involved in the ASUC is an idiot. -dans
        \_ MOCK
2004/2/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12190 Activity:very high
2/10    So what do you guys think:
        (a) WMDs were destroyed before the war
        (b) WMDs are buried in the desert in the middle of nowhere
        (c) WMDs are in Syria/Lebanon/etc
        (d) There were never any WMDs
        (e) WMD's are hiding with Osama.
        \_ No fair relabeling your options.  It makes everyone look nonsensical
        \_ Aren't you sick of this topic already?
        (d) WMD's are hiding with Osama.
        (d) WMD's are hiding with Osama.
        \_ I don't think even Wolfowitz was nutty enough to suggest (d).
        \_ how about:
        \_ I don't think even Wolfowitz was nutty enough to suggest (e).
        \_ We know some of (A) is true.  (B) wouldn't be a bad guess since
           the Iraqis have buried plenty of other things in the sand but
           obviously there's no proof (B) is true or we wouldn't be wondering
           about it.  (C) is based on intelligence rumors which is never a
           100% guarantee especially in the Middle East.  American intel has
           been weak since we started putting up lots of high quality spy
           satellites and letting the human intel skills dry up.
        \_ I think, more than likely, people under hussein probably had
           them destroyed to try and get back into the graces of the UN,
           and that the posturing was a balance between putting on a show
           of strength for their general populace and appeasing hussein.
           The inspectors were there and were looking.  We should have let
           them continue.  It was, apparently, an effective containment.
           --scotsman
           \_ Wait... that makes no sense.  Why would people under Hussein
              want to get into the graces of the UN?  UN could not save them
              from Hussein sending them to shredders.  What possible motive
              do they have for trying to appease an org which could do NOTHING
              for them, vs. appeasing a dictator who could kill them on a whim.
              Hussein had nothing to gain by giving up WMDs.  At the same time,
              almost every major nation except the US had something to gain
              by having US appear with an egg on their face.  Thus, what I think
              happened is, the WMDs are in Syria, possibly with Russian, etc.
              help.  Of course, it will be really difficult to prove, since
              Syria can move them somewhere else, or destroy them discreetly.
              \_ I think by "people under Hussein" scotsman is referring to his
                 underlings, not his peasants.  The people in his party would
                 want to help him avoid getting invaded.  That being said, if
                 there were WMDs, it wouldn't surprise me if they had were in
                 Syria or buried in the desert.
                 \_ BUSH IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
                 \_ [ I have less patience than poster below. ]
                    \_ Good way to kill a decent conversation, trollboy.  I'd
                       censor your dumb ass but I believe everyone has the
                       right to publicly demonstrate just how stupid they are.
           \_ There was a really great article about this subject by the
              guy who wrote "A Gathering Storm."  Wish I had the URL, but
              basically he had a fairly good argument that the WMD thing
              post 1995 was a bluff meant to help Saddam's domestic
              political situation.  There's also the whole issue of the
              large numbers of weapons scientists who were claiming to
              work on programs in order to get money but then simply
              embezzling it.  Then again, his book turned out to be all
              wrong so who knows.
              \_ Uhm, in 1998 the entire world still believed Iraq had WMD
                 when the inspectors left so either the bluff was very
                 effective and Iraq's internal security aparatus was rock
                 solid or there were WMDs somewhere in Iraq.
                 \_ Uhm, please don't speak for the entire world when
                    your knowledge of the world is limited by what
                    your third rate media and press dumps on ya.
                    \_ Gee, you're right.  I never read foreign press or see
                       what foreign dignitaries say or do anything else but
                       mindlessly suck up what ABC/NBC/CBS dish out at 8pm
                       everynight!  Thanks for enlightening me!  Ok, asshole,
                       back here in the real world, the entire world is on
                       public record as believing there were WMD in Iraq in
                       the 1998 post-inspector era.  Thank you.
                       \_ You keep saying, but it is still not true. Hans
                          Blix said otherwise, Colonel Ritter (Retired US
                          Marine Corp Colonel, head of the UN Inspection
                          Team in 1998) and Russia said otherwise. Your
                          repetition of a lie in the face of overwhelming
                          evidence makes you less credible. It does not
                          make the lie more believable.
                          \_ Now you're just outright lying.  I've seen
                             interviews with both Blix and Ritter and both
                             have said in public interviews that there were
              wrong so who knows.
                    your knowledge of the world is limited by what
                    your third rate media and press dumps on ya.
                          repetition of a lie in the face of overwhelming
                          evidence makes you less credible. It does not
                          make the lie more believable.
                             still WMD in Iraq in 1998 post-inspectors.  I was
                             going to give you the benefit of the doubt and
                             just call you ignorant but you've gone beyond
                             that.
                             \_ Prove it. I have the URLS and have posted them
                                time and time again. Show me the interviews
                                where Hans Blix or Ritter say that there
                                are still WMD in Iraq. You will never be
                                able to produce them because they never
                                said any such thing. You are just a big
                                fat liar.
                          \_ But, but, but it works for Fox News!
           \_ bingo. nicely put.
2004/2/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12191 Activity:nil
2/10    According to the McKinsey Global Institute, offshoring will benefit
        the US by saving money (which can be passed on to the customer or the
        investor, and you guess which one is more likely to see the money) and
        by creating wealth overseas that will be used to buy products from the
        US:
        http://csua.org/u/5xg (Economic Times of India)
        How does this make any sense?  Why wouldn't offshorers take their
        wages and invest them locally (i.e., buy knock-off CDs and DVDs)
        instead of paying US prices for goods?
        \_ Don't worry.  The invisible hand will make everything right.
        \_ No, it doesn't make any sense.  The report is easily shredded.  This
           is just PR puffery from Indian IT firms.
           \_ This PR Puffery is echoed by the bush administration.
              \_ Yes, so?  What's that have to do with the OP's questions?  Are
                 you trying to say that because the current administration says
                 something is true makes it true?  Think for yourself for once.
2004/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:12192 Activity:nil
2/10    Hahaha, even O'Reilly is turning against the pResident:
        http://csua.org/u/5xf
        \_ [OP typo corrected]
           \_ That was no typo.
              \_ I was being kind.
        \_ At least he is (very belatedly) living up to his promise from before
           the war. First it was two months, then three, then four, then six.
           Still, I'm impressed. I'm sure you'd never get even that much
           \_ Well, Rush was high as a kite on some serious dope, you gotta
              cut him some slack.
        \_ Sigh, why is this such a big shock?  I've been telling you on the
           motd for a looong time that Republican != conservative and that
           Bush is no conservative.  Jesus, here have a cookie, live it up.
                --conservative
           \_ It's a shock because O'Reilly is extremely egotistical, and to
              see him sacrifice some pride for the sake of his word is quite
              refreshing.
              \_ Oh, well yes O'R is an egomaniac but he's a fun egomaniac.
        \_ O'Reilly is much more skeptical about the Bush administration,
           yet he blames the CIA?
2004/2/10 [Finance/Banking] UID:12193 Activity:nil
2/10    Someone told me that Perkins Loan doesn't have any interest rate
        while you're in school. So it's a good insurance to have even if
        you don't need the money right away. At any rate, to apply for
        Perkins Loan, do you simply fill out FAFSA which then calculates
        the EFC which then determines how much money you receive?
2004/2/10-11 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:12194 Activity:nil
2/10    New remote buffer overflow for Windows.  Patch available
        http://www.eeye.com/html/Research/Advisories/AD20040210.htm
        http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS04-007.asp
2004/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12195 Activity:high
2/10    So much talk about outsourcing.  Nobody can give me the official
        Bush stance on the issue?   If he's for it, that's fine.  Just come
        out and say it and tell us how he's going to re-train or deal with
        the millions of people who are going to lose their jobs.
        \_ Both Kerry and Bush are / will be for it.  You seem to forget
           how much money corporations pour into politics.  You free-traders
           are naive; Walmart is the largest corporation on the planet
           today, refenues larger than the GDP of all but 30 countries.
           Where does Walmart produce most its products
           and where does it sell the same.  The
           trade deficit consists predominantly of US corps
           importing their products to the US.
2004/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12196 Activity:nil
2/10    Why are you wondering about WMD? Bush already said they found them.
        End of story. "We've found the weapons of mass destruction."
        http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0305/30/wbr.00.html
        \_ Uh, huh.  And they were where, exactly?
2004/2/10-11 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:12197 Activity:moderate
2/10    Hmmm...Motdedit with merge seems to make some...interesting mistakes.
        \_ such as? -nivra
           \_ Well I'm not sure...it may be some other ulletin/MS04-007.asp
              \_ yay for non-mandatory locking.
           \_ Well I'm not sure...it may be some other soda fuck-up-ed-ness...
              but at several points today there was lots of threads which had
              sections that seemed to repeat at random points, or threads which
              got mixed together.  Not sure if these were transient errors what
              with the constant editing going on.
2004/2/10-11 [Academia/Berkeley] UID:12198 Activity:kinda low
2/10    Daniel Pipes at UC Berkeley -- TODAY!
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1075408/posts#4
2004/2/10-11 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:12199 Activity:high
2/10    If you are just an independent agent (real estate, travel, etc.) that
        sells a product for other companies but never really stock it in
        you own warehouse, do you need to get a seller's permit?   -- confused
        by the rules' wording.
        \_ Depends on the product. Real Estate requires a real estate license,
           but not a sellers permit. Sellers permit is for hard goods.
           \_ What about an independent agent who sells hard goods for others,
              i.e. he negotiates and arranges for the transaction, but unlike
              a distributor he never sees or stocks the product himself?
2004/2/10-11 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:12200 Activity:very high
2/10    I've been seeing a lot in the news about outsourcing IT jobs
        recently, but nobody ever brings up economic arguments about
        how free trade benefits everyone.  To me it seems like the best
        thing for the US would be to allow outsourcing and use taxes
        from increased corporate profits to help temporarily displaced
        workers.  Any thoughts on why all the outsourcing arguments are
        emotional outbursts instead of rational economic arguments?
        \_ It's money going into foreign economies, to be used there.
           I don't know how increased corporate profits really leads to
           increased tax intake... my impression is that any corp worth
           its salt will create a shelter around the outsourced call center
           so that the CC can report great profits without being taxed at
           the US rate.  Can somebody back me up or correct me?
           \_ Actually no.  For various reasons, foreign economies, esp.
              those 3rd countries that you are worried about outsourcing to,
              have a historical difficulty in keeping money in their own
              country, and it is not getting any better.  In fact this
              is one reason driving them so hard to keep exporting and
              getting sourced -- just to keep afloat, barely.
        \_ Temporarily replaced until what?  They get a burger flipping job?
           But oh yeah even McDonald's was closing storefronts and laying off
           people.  What could be worse than getting laid off from McD's?
           These are not American companies.  They are vast multinational
           corporations with no concern or regard for this or any other
           country's people.  Profit is God and it isn't being put back into
           the economy in a useful way.  How did HP eating Compaq, laying off
           10's of thousands of Americans and moving their jobs to India help
           Americans?
           \_ Are you saying Carly Fiorina isn't American?
              \_ I understand what CF owes to her kids. I understand
                 what she owes to her shareholders. I understand what
                 she owes to her neighbors and secretary and employees.
                 Can you explain to be what special duties she owes to
                 Americans? Does she have some special obligation also
                 to say white people? --psb
                 \_ Partha, you're an American.  From this we can prove
                            \- how do you figure that? my point being if you
                            \- how do you figure that? my point is: if you
                               feel she/HP owe something to "all americans"
                               because they are "more like" americans, then
                               why doenst this apply to race? i would like you'
                               to argue why race and nationality should be
                               trated differently ... or fess up that they
                               are equally valid moral categories based on
                               which to treat people differently. --psb
                               \_ I would say that distinguishing CF from
                                  the entity of HP dilutes the point.  The
                                  point is the corporation is operating in
                                  this country.  It reaps benefits from this
                                  country and its stability.  We should have
                                  the balls to say "If you don't employ people
                                  here, you should be paying higher taxes."
                                  -scotsman
                               \_ So you're not an American? Then wtf are you
                                  doing here then? Go back to your own country.
                                  \_ He might be a permanent resident which
                                     would mean that he isn't an American,
                                     but he has every right to remain here
                                     provided he does not commit a deportable
                                     offense.
                               \_ Race: a function of genetics. Nationality:
                                  a function of social grouping. I'd argue
                                  that race is less important than nationality
                                  on that basis, and that nationality is less
                                  important than tribe, and that tribe is less
                                  important than family. Depending on the
                                  level of nurture/support you received from
                                  those levels, you could conceivably swap
                                  them around, with the exception of Race,
                                  which may form the tenuous basis for initial
                                  social interaction, but which does not
                                  inform or impose social groups/interactions
                                  on its own. Again, depending on the level
                                  of support/nurture you receive, your loyalty
                                  to the various levels in the hiearchy may
                                  also vary. CF owes no moral duty to other
                                  white people (or, for that matter, women);
                                  she does owe a moral duty to America for
                                  providing her with a socio-economic
                                  environment conducive to satisfying her
                                  corporate greed. As a captain of industry,
                                  it is her duty to perpetuate the corporate
                                  industrial model by providing jobs and
                                  strenghtening the economy.
                                  \_ You've contradicted yourself with
                                     your own arguement.  Sure, a CEO
                                     *should* show loyalty to their nation.
                                     However, their tribe, the tribe of
                                     CEOs and other members of the plunderer
                                     class holds far more loyalty from its
                                     members than nations do from their
                                     citizens.  Which is why we need laws,
                                     and which is why the world would be a
                                     better place if the motd libertarians
                                     would just fucking keel over and die.
                                     \_ *shrug* I never argued that a person
                                        should owe loyalty to their nation
                                        over the loyalty owed to their tribe.
                                        I simply argued that the duty to
                                        Nation is more morally justifiable
                                        than the duty to Race.
                    that not all Americans are white people.  In addition,
                    Prince Charles is a white person.  From this we can
                    prove that not all white people are Americans.  Having
                    dispensed with the mythical relationship between being
                    white and being American, we can now move to the
                    specifics: CF is American and her kids are Americans.
                    Therefore, anything that CF does to increase her
                    bottom line benefits Americans, regardless of whether
                    she has some special duty to do so.
           \_ Your sound like a classic Marxist-Leninist class warrior,
              who believes wealth is redistributed rather than created.
              I am not fond of Bush yet if it would be truly disastrous should
              we replace him by a protectionist demagogue.  Economy by
              its very nature has ups and downs.  Why didn't we complain when
              the time was too good?  Are we too spoiled to adapt and create?
              Besides, other than psychological stress, do you know anyone
              who is suffering horribly (homeless in People's park don't count
              - they never did.)
              \_ Why don't the homeless count? How about other poor people?
                 How about the guy who is raped nightly in prison?
           \_ Well, it helped in that we can now buy computers for something
              like $500 instead of $2000. More people own them now than ever
              and are proficient in using them. Is losing those high-paid
              R&D jobs worth it (ex DEC guys)? The answer is that it depends.
              \_ This conversation is funny because you guys are all talking
                 about jobs which YOU hold that could be the target of such
                 outsourcing, and you're goofing off at work to talk about it.
                 Get back to work, drones.
           \_ These responses are perfect examples of what I'm wondering about.
              Imagine that everyone in the US can produce either 8 sodas
              per day or 2 pizzas per day while people in India can
              produce 1 soda per day or 4 pizzas per day.  If people
              in the US refuse to allow outsourcing then all Americans
              must make do with s/8+p/2 <= 1 (where s is number of sodas and
              p is number of pizzas).  If we allow outsourcing
              so that Indians specialize in pizzas and Americans specialize
              in sodas which are traded 1-to-1 then Americans can have
              s/8+p/4 <= 1.  Thus Americans *benefit* (You can show that
              Indians benefit too).  The end result turns out the same
              pretty much no matter what numbers you plug in.  Essentially
              everyone benefits by spending their labor on what they are
              best at.  Of course, this model ignores things like American
              pizza maker's being put out of work when pizza making moves
              to India.  But the solution to that would seem to be to use
              tax revenues to retrain them so that everyone is better off.-op
              \_ Retrain them for what? These are American companies setting
                 up shop in other countries (basically international co's).
                 So the skill and knowhow are transferred, while labor, tax,
                 environmental etc. regulations are better for them and wages
                 are dirt cheap. Labor itself is a tradeable good, which
                 puts downward competitive pressure on labor standards. Without
                 protection, regular American workers can't be competitive with
                 other countries willing to have lower standards, as over time
                 the competitive advantage in skills narrows and disappears.
                 US still has the advantage in certain tech areas and research,
                 but that's not a broad employment area and corps can just use
                 that here with minimum investment in the economy.
                 \_ Retrain them for jobs in the medical profession for
                    example.  We have a shortage of doctors in this country.
                    If another country can do something dirt cheap then why
                    not let them do it cheaply and spend our effort on higher
                    value products?  The money saved by outsourcing to India
                    can be used to make our economy stronger by investing in
                    research, education, science, etc.  Why not take the $70K
                    IT job and ship it to India for $20K and spend the $50K
                    on training the former IT worker to do something even
                    more productive like discovering a cure for cancer? -op
              \_ White collar jobs being outsourced to India aren't being sent
                 there because Indians do it better, but because Indians will do
                 it for less.  You really just explained why trade is good.
                 \_ I realize that, but this was simpler to show quickly.
                    Like I said, no matter how you set things up, free trade
                    usually benefits everyone.  My point was that I can't
                    these good economic argument against outsourcing as long
                    as some provision is made for temporarily displaced
                    workers (e.g., retraining, education, unemployment). -op
                    \_ "free trade" does not benefit everyone. There are
                       winners and losers. Ask Detroit if they benefited
                       from the mad rush of manufacturing jobs overseas.
                       It benefits shareholders and CEOs. Probably overall
                       hurts the working and middle classes.
                       \_ I agree that Detroit is an example of what can go
                          wrong with free trade.  But I fault our society and
                          government for not making the effort to retrain and
                          educate former auto workers for careers in better
                          professions.  If they had done that, we would have
                          cheaper foreign cars and more prosperous workers.-op
              \_ Our middle class was built on a robust manufacturing economy.
                 That economy was outsourced, causing massive upheavals of all
                 sorts and lots of Bad Stuff (c.f. 1970s, early '80s).  It
                 was replaced by a service economy that now seems to be in
                 the early stages of being outsourced.  What I'm wondering is
                 twofold: What are the consequences, economically and socially,
                 of another such upheaval, and what will replace the service
                 economy?  Another way of putting the first part of the
                 question is, "Have you ever seen what happened to Detroit?"
                 Free trade definitely has its benefits, and I'm in favor of
                 it with some caveats, but keep in mind its a CHOICE, not
                 an inevitability, and I think it benefits some much more than
                 others.
                 \_ The borrow-from-the-Chinese economy.
                 \_ The middle/upper management economy.
        \_ So do those of you who oppose IT outsourcing buy American?  If
           not, why is it OK for you to buy foreign cars, clothes, or
           electronics but not OK for a company to offer cheaper service
           by outsourcing IT jobs?  I'm curious since a good response would
           let me drive my Toyota, oppose outsourcing, and sleep well at night.
2004/2/10-11 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:12201 Activity:kinda low
2/10    What is the equivalent of "protected static int COUNTER=0" in C++?
        Either protected or private would be ok. Thanks!
        class foo {
           protected:
             static int COUNTER;
        };
        in foo.cpp
           int foo::COUNTER = 0;
2004/2/10 [Uncategorized] UID:12202 Activity:nil
2/10    Amateurs.
        soda [70] wc /etc/motd.public
             270    2480   15425 /etc/motd.public
        \_ pornP
2004/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12203 Activity:kinda low
2/10    Serious inquiry.  I don't think Bush has talked about outsourcing.
        What is his official position?  I've heard Kerry talk on the radio
        saying that he'll remove tax breaks to companies that move jobs
        overseas.  Also he called those CEOs Benedict Arnold CEOs.  He has
        also proposed legislation that would require call centers operators
        to answer the phone announcing their location.  I'd go farther.
        All call center operators should announce their REAL first name and
        location.  All those sweatshops in india pick up the phone and LIE
        about their name.  I can tell the phony accent.  They name is not
        John or Mary.  It's Prakash, Rajesh, Lakshmi, etc.  I don't like
        people lying to me.  Where does Bush stand on this issue?!
               \- When the people at Safeway/McD which you a great day, do
                  you think they should be randomly checked under peine forte
                  et dure for sincereity? How about when a cafe announces they
                  have the best coffee in the world? what is *your* stand on
                  steel tarriffs? --psb
        \_ When the people at Safeway/McD which you a great day, do
           you think they should be randomly checked under peine forte
           et dure for sincereity? How about when a cafe announces they
           have the best coffee in the world? what is *your* stand on
           steel tarriffs? --psb
           [formatting corrected.  I just couldn't take it anymore.]
        \_ why should they have to announce their location? how would you
           like to do that?
           \_ "Hello, my name is Prakash in Bangalore India.  May I verify
               your social security number?"
              "What?!  I want to talk to a supervisor in the United States.
               I'm not giving my social security number to somebody in India."
           \_ the opening phrase used by the call center person is not a
              concern for the call center person.  it's just a script.  their
              feelings in the matter are of no concern.
2004/2/10 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:12204 Activity:nil
2/10    Do different versions of tcsh have different policy regarding env.
        variable names?  I use names with a period in them and it was OK
        for setenv until I upgraded.
        \_ apparently not.
        \_ apparently so.
2004/2/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12205 Activity:nil
2/10    Can't wait to see the ads the Democrats put together with this
        collection of headlines:
        LA Times: "Bush Supports Shift of Jobs Overseas"
        Seattle Times: "Bush Report: Sending jobs overseas helps U.S."
        Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: "Bush Economic Report Praises 'Outsourcing'
        Jobs"
        Orlando Sentinel: "Bush Says Sending Jobs Abroad Can Be Beneficial"
        \_ I forget where I saw this one: "Intelligence Probe Could Be Trouble
           For Bush"
           \_ Reminds me of my favorite recent headline: "Justice Department
              to Probe Cheney's Staff."  They're probing Dick's Staff!  Huh
              huh huh huh huh huh....
        \_ It hardly matters.  The average voter is used to reading left wing
           'mainstream' media headlines and assigning them proper value.  It
           would be woefully stupid to run a political campaign based on media
           headlines anyway.  OTOH if they had actual Bush quotes standing at
           a podium saying "Sending American jobs overseas is good for
           American workers!" then there'd be something to talk about.
           \_ So a report out of the administration isn't as disturbing to
              you as a press conference?  These are the same arguments that
              pushed NAFTA through and decimated our factory-job supply.
              Keep pushing those margins and you'll have a lot of angry,
              out of work people.  Sounds like a good recipe for crime or
              revolt.
              \_ Please put more words in my mouth so I don't have to think.
                 Thanks!  No, a report out of the administration is actually
                 the same as a press conference or speech.  A headline from
                 the 'mainstream' media is useless.  I'm anti-NAFTA, btw, so
                 be careful you poke that stick.
                 \_ The headlines are talking about that report. What is your
                    point? Do you disbelieve that report exists or what?
        \_ I truly wonder if liberals aren't so disorganized that they can
           put together such an ad.  Are they really that far from Dean's
           mentality on rallying his base?
           \_ YEEAARRRGGHH!!
              \_ Needs more Gs.
2004/2/10 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:29788 Activity:nil
2/9     I'm in search of a new blogging script.  I've used b2 in the past, but
        it's no longer being developed, and I thought I'd see what else is
        out there.  What do you use, and why?
        \_ b2 is still being developed; it lives on as WordPress.  I use it
           because it's free and simple.  http://www.wordpress.org
2004/2/10 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:29789 Activity:nil 76%like:29791
2/10    How come the following print 1,2 instead of 2,2? CONFUSED.
        class A{
        int m;
        public void Main(){
                B b;
                A a;
                b = new B();
                a = b;
                b.mb();
                a.m = 2;
                System.out.println(b.m);
                System.out.println(a.m);
        }
        }
        class B extends A{
        int m;
        public void mb(){
                m = 1;
        }
        }
2004/2/10-11 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:29790 Activity:high
2/10    Bluetooth phones are hackable:
        http://news.com.com/2100-1009_3-5155927.html?tag=xlr8yourmac
2004/2/10 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:29791 Activity:nil 76%like:29789
2/10    How come the following prints 1 and 2? If I do a=b, shouldn't
        they contain equivalent member variables?
class A{
        int m;
        public void Main(){
                B b;
                A a;
                b = new B();
                a = b;
                b.mb();
                a.m = 2;
                System.out.println(b.m);
                System.out.println(a.m);
        }
}

class B extends A{
        int m;
        public void mb(){
                m = 1;
        }
}
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:February:10 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>