2/4     Faith Based Intelligence:
        http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/60II/main577975.shtml

2/4     Just finished The Guns Of August by Barbara Tuchman.  Wow.  Highly
        highly recommended if you have any interest in WWI history.
        \- you may wish to read: E.H. Carr: Twenty Years Crisis --psb
        \_ hew strachan.  the first world war.  only volume 1 so far tho.

2/4     Since ipfw rules does not care which program is making the outbound
        access, how do I block, say all outgoing traffic except that generated
        by ssh and mozilla?
        \_ That's not really what ipfw does.  Block all outbound traffic
           destined for ports other than 80, 443 and 22.
           \_ Okay, is there a way to block based on program name in FreeBSD?
              (I heard ZoneAlarm Pro does that, but it only runs on windows?)
              \- there are some sort of hairy ways to do with with
                 fbsd involving complicated jail setups. with linux i suppose
                 you can try grsecurity. solaris-next is supposed to have much
                 finer-grain control but i'm not the best person here to talk
                 about that. what about traffic genreated by say your resolver
                 routines? --psb
                 \_ ob"we don't need no stinkin resolver routines!"

2/4     Apache_SSL vs. mod_ssl ... discuss
        \_ In Apache 2, ssl is built-in. It seems to work well.
        \_ Apache_SSL has not benn maintained in literally years.  Use
           mod_ssl.
           \_ cool, thanks

2/4     How come USB 2.0's speed on spec is faster than IEEE 1394 but I
        can never make it come even close?
        \_ You can't confuse peak throughput rates with actual sustained
           rates. The USB and FireWire protocols are vastly different.
           Take AGP 2x, 4x, and 8x for example. One would think that
           each is twice as fast as the one before. But with the way
           AGP is speced, all requests must round up to the nearest
           common clock (running at 15ns). So in 8x, 32-bytes can be
           transfered in 1 reference clock cycle but if the GPU makes
           a 16-byte request, half the bandwidth is thrown away. Also,
           because AGP is a shared bus, turn-around cycles will cause
           performance degradation when the bus alternates direction.
           My guess is that USB is more vulnerable to these kinds of
           things than 1394 is.
        \_ What are you benchmarking with, senor
        \_ There's two separate speed for USB 2.0: one at only 10s of MBB/s
           and another at the full speed off 100s.  And then there're
           those manufacturers that label USB 1.1 devices as USB2.
           \_ I hate that.  The bastards put a 2.0 cable on a 1.1 device and
              *lie* calling it a 2.0 device.
              \- why dont you get john edwards to represent you in a CLASS
                 ACTION suit ... along the lines of the Great Monitor Dimension
                 suit. --psb
                 \_ uhm... yeah... sure... ooookkkkk... you feeling alright?
              \_ USB 2.0 Hi-Speed (fast), USB 2.0 Full-Speed (slow)
                 Since when is marketing a crime?
                 \_ Yes, there are those two sets of speed in the spec for
                    USB 2.0.  But aside from that, what we're complaining here
                    is about the manufacturers that are marketing USB 1.1
                    devices as USB2.
                    \_ You've been whooshed.  See:
             http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20040204.html
                    \_ USB 2.0 Full-Speed == USB 1.1
        \_ USB has a lot of overhead.  Plus, when dealing with USB 2 devices,
           you need to look for the "hi-speed" label (not "full-speed")
        \_ USB is designed to be cheap and has very simple wiring.  Firewire
           has better electrical characteristics, but costs more to implement
           and to wire up.  (There are more wires, too, as each signal cable
           has a separate ground.)  Basically, USB==cheap, IEEE1394==reliable.
           \_ If you're talking about cost, remember each 1394 port subsidizes
              Apple.  USB is an open standard.

2/4     Dear sodans, my wife and I have been trying to have a baby for the
        past 6 months without any luck. What is the best advice you have?
        Like best day/time to have sex, etc? ok thx.
        \_ it takes 9 months to come out
        \_ A little known fact is that all the cures for warts found in
           Tom Sawyer will also help you conceive.  They only work if you
           record them on video, and put it in a public directory in
           csua, though.  Start with the dead cat in a cemetary.
        \_ Thank you for relieving the boredom.  I await the motd replies
           with great anticipation.
        \_ Stop doing her up the ass.
        \_ you mean you and the mailman are both sterile? what're the
           chances...
           \_ Try FedEx.  USPO never comes on time.
        \_ please post your address and a good time when I should try to
           come over to help
        \_ find out when your wife is fertile.  Go see doctors.
        \_ Insert the male dongle into the female port
        \_ If none of these suggestions work, try seeing a fertility
           specialist.
        \_ Don't do her every day. Your sperm count would get too low. You can
           see a doctor and have your stuff checked out. They can advise you
           on the monthly cycles etc.
           \_ stuff? which stuff is that?
           \_ I believe stud dogs and horses are bred <= every 2 days.
              \_ And?
                 \_ Therefore it might make sense to try every other day.
                    \_ Yeah... I couldn't tell if your "<=" was agreeing or
                       disagreeing.
                       \_ 'Less than or equal to every 2 days'
                          \_ "every two days" is not a number. I guess I needed
                             an "often" in there somewhere.
        \_ Are you wearing tight briefs?  If so, switch to boxers.
           \_ And stop riding bike (nothing to do with using Linux), unless you
              always ride it standing-up with your butt away from the seat.
              \_ How do you know that using Linux doesn't make you less fertile?
                 \_ No I don't, but I don't know otherwise either.
        \_ Throw her out of the house and order up a new mail order Russian
           bride.
        \_ If your wife has regular cycles, ovulation is at 14 days after the
           first day of period.  So concentrate your effort to between the 11th
           day and the 14th day, because sperms can last three days inside her.
           I used this rule in reverse to avoid having a kid, until my wife
           threatened to divorce me.  A couple months later she got pregnant.
           \_ *Laugh*  This is the best thing on the entire motd.  Classic.

2/4     Bravo!  Stripped the motd down to the stale threads interesting to
        no one!  Motd Censor, I salute your fine taste and excellent sense
        of style!  This is the way the motd should look all the time!  Bring
        on more stale threads!

2/5     conservatives and liberals love to argue and would rather do so
        than have a boring motd.
        \_ What about libertarians/authoritarians?  Don't they love to argue
           too?  Why can't you acknowledge that there are simply more
           argument lovers than you think there are?  When you grow up and
           have a real job, let us all know.
           \_ okay, I'll be inclusive and include those people too.

2/5     Some people in my office are complaining about a virus that infects
        their PC when they preview an infected message using the Netscape
        mail client.  They say if you exit the client, it attempts to
        automatically compact the Inbox, fails, and effectively wipes it clean.
        I haven't heard of this, has anyone else?  They say it's not detected
        by Norton AntiVirus yet.  (If I were to guess, I'd say their Inbox
        got corrupted, and it may not be because of a virus.)

2/5     There you go

2/5     The "have-a-baby" troll below piqued my curiosity: which countries
        currently have the most advanced fertility treatment?  Are they also
        leaders in cloning technology?
        \_ By the way, thank you for correctly spelling "piqued".  We do
           appreciate it.
           \_ Its all about propper grammer, and, spelling.
        \_ western ones.  yes.
        \_ I think Italy especially has loose laws about cloning/fertilization
           \_ Mmmmm, loose Italian women...Mmmmm, Monica Bellucci...mmm....
           \_ Not Italy. Italy is very Catholic about these things. I think
              Korea is the most liberal about fertility tech.
              \_ Yeah, shit, I mean, check out those mass Moonie weddings.

2/5     So when was "Yatta" popular?  I totally missed it.
        \_ 2-3 years ago.  For about 15 minutes.

2/5     How do you organize your MP3s?
        \_ musicbrainz is a good idea in theory.  I think there's a Windows client.
        \_ /mp3/[A-Z]/Artist/Album/Artist - 01 - This Song.mp3
           \_ what program do you use?  (jukebox)
              \_ Winamp 2.91.  Played with iTunes, it's no good unless you have
                 complete ID3 tags on almost everything, and I don't.  I played
                 with Winamp5 and saw no real advangages.
                \_ if you have your files named uniformly, it is quite easy
                   to use some of the tools available out there to quickly
                   generate correct id3 tags for all of your songs... (did it
                   in a couple of hours for ~20GB).  It is nice to be able
                   to sort in different ways...
                   \_ Problem is, I don't.  And I have 65GB
        \_ Genre/Composer/Album/Name.mp3
                I listen to all kinds of music.
                \_ you must have lots of classical.  Composer?
        \_ I Drink Kool-Aid:
           ~/Music/iTunes/{Artist|Compilation/Artist}/Album/NN Song Name.mp3

2/4     Conservatives -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ a. keeping my money
           b. making more money
           \_ you are making conservatives sound very selfish
              \_ of course he is.  he isn't a conservative.  he's trolling.
        \_ 1. Making sure my money is spent how I want it to be spent.
           2. Reducing government services/intervention/size to those the
              government does best (e.g. defense)
           \_ I disagree with #1.  Tax money should be spent wisely and for
              what helps the nation, not on a new pool in your backyard.  Or
              better yet, my backyard.  --conservative
              \_ Maybe I feel strongly that a new pool helps the nation. I
                 think deciding what "helps the nation" is at the core of
                 this question and liberals have a different idea than
                 conservatives do. I don't think a lot of "helpful
                 government programs" help the nation.
                 \_ your feelings have nothing to do with it.  you won't be
                    able to demonstrate a new pool helps anyone but you.  I
                    agree that various social programs only destroy those
                    they are intended to help.
                    \_ How about the Interstate system? Are you opposed
                       to that, too?
                       \_ Built during the Commie Liberal Roosevelt
                          New Dealism era.
                       \_ The IState system improves commerce efficiency, so
                          no.  The welfare system destroys lives, so yes.
                          Various tax credits and penalties are used to
                          conduct government directed social engineering which
                          IMO is the biggest crime possible in this context.
                 \_ a new pool will increase overall GDP (by increasing
                    consumption, and the pool maker will also consume and
                    so on.. sort of like the multiplier effect.)  Thus, a
                    new pool might be helpful to society.
                    \_ no, because the final product has no value to society.
                       if the pool was purchased with his own money then what
                       you say would be true.  but when purchased with tax
                       dollars which otherwise would have had that multiplier
                       effect in the economy, they are first filtered through
                       the government waste system and what little is left is
                       then multiplied.
                       \_ So you are saying it's better to build a pool
                          than to give the money to the wasteful
                          government in the form of taxes. Exactly. If I
                          pay some laborers $20K to build my pool I think
                          I've done more for them than any government
                          program would have.
        \_ 1. Promote traditional family values.  Protect the family.
           2. Protection of Life and Liberty (from conception to natural
              death) and the pursuit of happiness.
           \_ Isn't racism a traditional family value?
              \_ hint: I'm not white, or a WASP.
              \_ yes, it is, in white, black, hispanic, asian, and just about
                 all other cultures.  would you prefer breaking up all
                 families because sometimes they do bad and stupid things?
                 \_ No. But I'm pointing out what a vague and meaningless term
                    "family values" is in politics. What, specifically, do you
                    expect politicians to do about family values? They like to
                    talk about it in elections but it sidesteps any debate over
                    actual policies. In short, it's a load of bullshit. And
                    historically speaking, liberals were the ones fighting for
                    the rights of women and minorities. Maybe nowadays, family
                    values is a euphemism for anti-gay, xtian fundamentalism.
                    \_ killing people (born and unborn) is bad.
                       What about those rights?  And affirmative action
                       is not the only way to help minorities.
        \_ 1.  Only allow the traditional sexual position.
           2.  Only adult can and must be killed.
           \_ Bad troll, no cookie.
        Liberals      -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ 1. Universal health care and education.
           \_ Provide a service with infinite costs like healthcare and you'll
              get everyone over-using it to the point that everyone gets near-
              zero care.  Education is a different story since the costs are
              limited and predictable with long term benefits for all of
              society.
           2. I'm very glad to see a good number of the candidates talk
           about fair trade and tax incentives to keep jobs here. If
           we're going to play in a "global" marketplace, all players
           must play fair. --scotsman
           \_ They're talking but once elected it'll be outsource as usual.
           \_ I'm being naive but I thought conservatives were free traders?
              \_ Did I say free?  Check your prescription. --scotsman
                 \_ what does fair mean exactly?  I'll raise my tariffs
                    to match yours?
                    \_ It means "I actually care about how you treat your
                       workers"
                       \_ how does this translate into policy?
        \_ Getting Bush out of office.
           \_ is this an "issue"?
              \_ only if you're an extremist leftist motd wacko.  the rest of
                 country is more concerned with jobs, healthcare, and defense
                 \_ I bet 1/3 of the Democratic party would disagree with
                    you. You might think that 10% of the country is extremist
                    left whackos, but you are starting to stretch the
                    definition a bit there. Many of them are more partisan
                    than leftist, anyway.
                    \_ you are right.  kind of like how all the
                       republicans want clinton out no matter what.
                       \_ "all" and "no matter what" are incorrect.
        \_ 1. Making sure the most helpless in society, especially
              children, are adequately taken care of.
              \_ isn't that what *PARENTS* are for?  who else?
                 \_ Parents have the first responsibility, but in many
                   -- ilyas
                    cases they fail to do their job. What then?
                    \_ Take the kids away and sterilise the parents.  There
                       are a lot of people who can't have kids and would take
                       much better care of them.  It Takes A Village, remember?
           2. Keeping the rights of the minority safe from being
              trampled on by the majority.
              \_ including free speech rights for those who disagree with
                 you, right?
                 \_ In my case, absolutely. I am an ACLU member.
                    \_ mmmmm, yeeaah... I like the concept of the ACLU and
                       what they claim to stand for but they don't always,
                       but overall I'm glad they're there than not at all.
                    \_ I was an ACLU member once.  Then they sold my name
                       to a bunch of mailing lists.
        \_ 1. Protection of civil liberties
           \_ Where were the Democrats during the Civil Rights movement, huh?
              Blocking Highschool doorways so black kids couldn't enter.
              \_ Didn't Johnson sign the Civil Right's Bill and send
                 federal troops to Alabama to desegregate the schools?
           2. Socialized Medicine
           \_ what is the conservative way of dealing with Medicine?
                - not a liberal
              \_ not going EU/Canadian style and destroying the system.
              \_ Let the free market handle it.
                  \_ how would the free market handle it?  What about those
                     who can't afford it?
                     \_ I believe there should be a minimal level of health
                        care provided to all citizens such as shots for kids,
                        and 911 emergency care but I don't think we should all
                        be paying for some of the things I've seen such as the
                        $250,000 spent so far just in medical costs to keep a
                        friend's near-brain dead child alive for the last 10
                        years.  And then there's the $150,000 or so spent on
                        other care.  The child is non-functional, unable to
                        speak at all, can almost crawl and doesn't recognise
                        her own mother from a hole in the ground.  None of this
                        ever should have been allowed to happen.  She should
                        have been allowed to die at birth and would have with-
                        out *amazing* amounts of top notch western medical
                        care.  How many kids could be helped with that $400k
                        who can actually *use* the help?
        \_ 1. Equal rights under the law, civil liberties.
           \_ Where were the Democrats when the Civil Rights Movement was
              taking the nation?  Blocking black kids from entering white
              high schools.
           2. Promoting the welfare of the masses and egalitarian society.
           \_ You mean taking money from one group and giving it to another
              who hasn't done anything to earn it.
        Moderates     -- what two issues do you really care about?
        \_ they care about nothing at all, that's what makes them moderates.
           \_ No, they just aren't fanatics. They don't have a pet agenda to
              push. So they listen to the yammering of both sides and want
              something in between.
              \_ They're mushy heads.  How can they have been awake for the
                 last however many years and still not have an opinion on so
                 many topics which will send this country down very different
                 paths in the years to come?  Mushy heads.
                 \_ They may like how things are or have views which don't
                    all neatly fall into one column or the other. Most things
                    end up being a compromise and therefore "moderate".
                    \_ The key concept of compromise is no one likes it.
                       I have no respect for people who prefer to compromise
                       all the time instead of making something happen.  Mushy
                       heads.  If they really believed in the status quo then
                       they should be opposing both sides.  They *do* have a
                       pet agenda if you're correct.  Since we don't see
                       your version of moderates raising their voices in
                       loud opposition to the extremes we must conclude they
                       really don't care and are just a bunch of Mushy Heads.

        Message from OP: I'm not trying to troll.  one of the reasons
        I have is to see whether the priorities of conservatives and
        liberals are very similar or very different.
        \_ Mr. OP, in my opinion the difference between conservatives and
           liberals isn't priorities (they are often the same), but
           that they view human rights differently.  The set of human
           rights for a liberal is different from the set of human rights
           for a conservative.  Hence the vehement opposition, etc.  Rights
           are pretty basic stuff.  -- ilyas
           \_ are there rights when it comes to economic issues?
              \_ Of course.  For instance, a liberal might think everyone
                 is entitled to healthcare.  In fact, he might think this
                 right trumps the property rights of others.  A conservative
                 thinks property rights are more important.  It is in the
                 specifics of what rights trump what other rights that the
                 whole disagreement is rooted.  In some sense, liberals and
                 conservatives want the same thing (unless they are evil,
                 or sleazy political scumbags) -- for people to be happy
                 productive and free.  But the devil's in the details.
                 I think the ordering of rights is not entirely subjective,
                 and there is one natural one that is 'right.'  But some
                 might say that's naive platonism.  -- ilyas
                 \_ we may have to make a distinction between the
                    hardliners of each side versus the more moderate
                    conservatives or liberals.
                    \_ Still, I think the difference is the ordering of
                       rights, and not something else.  -- ilyas
                       \_ This might be true for the difference between
                          big business conservatives and liberals, but
                          you have to read the bible to understand the
                          religious conservative types. They aren't really
                          interested in the concept of "rights" at all.
                          It is more a matter of salvation and saving souls
                          to them.
                          \_ Religious conservatives may not be interested
                             in the concept of rights, but their position
                             implicitly defines how they view rights.  For
                             instance, most religious conservatives have a
                             very restrictive view of rights when it comes
                             to homosexuality, same sex marriages/unions, etc.
                             Even if their philosophical position had been
                                \_ [ Hi, deleting other people's replies is
                                     not cool. ]
                                     \_ FU. I always use motdedit, unlike
                                        you apparently, who frequently
                                        overwrites my posts.
                             reached by reading the bible, and not thinking
                             about it a whole lot, it's still a position.
                             Some religious conservatives can give a
                             thoughtprovoking defense of their position, so
                             it's not easy to dismiss them.
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Are you agreeing me, or what? I am saying
                                the differences are a lot more complex than
                                just an "ordering of rights." Not everyone
                                agrees that being happy and free is the
                                goal of existence.
                                \_ Ordering rights is a lot more complex than
                                   you think.  In some sense, the whole of
                                   moral philosophy can be viewed as figuring
                                   out what human rights are, and how to
                                   order them.  I will go out on a limb here,
                                   and suggest than people who don't want
                                   others to be happy and free are bad people.
                                   I try not to talk to bad people.  -- ilyas

2/4     If the Republicans can dig up dirt on Clinton (affairs, etc etc) how
        come the Democrats are so incompetent that they can't find dirt on
        Bush?