Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:January:15 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:11782 Activity:nil
1/14    I have multiple email account, and now I use IMAP/POP3 fetch them
        to my local harddrive (except my CSUA shell account).  That is not
        hard.  My question now is, when I reply to these email account,
        I want to make them *THINK* that the email is replying from the
        account which I recieved them from.  How to do that?  can
        I achieve this by install an email server + fetchmail ?
        thanks
        \_ Um, how convincing does it need to be?  Setting your From:
           header should be sufficient for casual observers.  Most mail
           clients let you do this.  Some, e.g. mutt, can automatically
           set the from header based on the mail you are replying to.
           \_ Mutt?  Get off the motd, mutt-whore!  You were doing well until
              you started pushing your own personal brand of mail client
              poison.  Why didn't you say, "Some, e.g. mh, can automatically"
              instead of mutt, huh?  This is clearly anti-mh discrimination
              and is an indignity up with which I will not put!
           \_ My current arrangement is download all my emails (yahoo, hotmail
              etc) to Thunderbird, and when I reply, I uses my New York
              account's SMTP server.  Because of the nature of emails are
              different from account to account, I would like to keep them
              (appearently) seperate.  Yes, manually changing the "From"
              header is suffice, but the header need to be changed based
              upon where the person has send the email to, instead of who
              the person is.  I thought would be a common problem among
              Sodian geeks, and wondering if any of you has any solution to
              this problem.     --OP
              \_ so what, one is your cia account, one is your fsb
                 account, one is your child porn account, or what? why is
                 it so imperative that the headers not reveal what smtp host
                 you're using?
2004/1/15 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11783 Activity:nil 66%like:29749
1/14    So those mortar shells turned out not to be chemical weapons
        at all, why didn't our triumphant anonymous motd post a retraction?
        \_ you are a bitter liberal
                \_ you are a sheep!   -!op
                   \_ You're all sheeple!!!  -- crazy guy on cable access
        \_ O'Reilly's interview on ABC's Good Morning America (March 18, 2003)
           "Here's, here's the bottom line on this for every American and
           everybody in the world, nobody knows for sure, all right? We don't
           know what he has. We think he has 8,500 liters of anthrax. But
           let's see. But there's a doubt on both sides. And I said on my
           program, if, if the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein
           and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation,
           and I will not trust the Bush Administration again, all right?
           But I'm giving my government the benefit of the doubt. . . ."
           .... now, do you recall when he apologized?  What?  You DON'T?
           BECAUSE HE NEVER DID.  AND NEITHER WILL THE REST OF THE ASSHOLE
           REPUBLICANS.
           \_ "Where the debate is, is why haven't we found huge stockpiles
              and why haven't we found large caches of these weapons? Let's
              let the Iraqi Survey Group complete its work." -Colin Powell
              \_ Wouldn't it be funny if the survey group said "you know,
                 we couldn't find anything!" and Powell voluntarily took
                 the blame and resigned?
        \_ there is no point to drill on this.  we all know Bush just want
           to get Saddam, and there is no rational reason behind it. God damn
           I wish my tax dollar could be better spent.
        \_ What's to retract?  The original URLs all made it very clear that
           the shells were being sent for testing.  When are you going to
           ask that Dean open his records from his time as Governor?  What is
           he hiding?  My favorite so far is his energy commission which held
           secret closed door meetings with leaders from the energy industry
           from which he formed his energy policy... just like... Dick Cheney!
           \_ Because the claims were touted as "look, WMDs may have been
              found!" with a small clarification much later "oh they need to
              do a little testing."  In a case like that you should have the
              the decency to correct yourself later.
              \_ This is barely worth replying to since in your own statement
                 you make it clear it was "may have been" as if that's such a
                 strong statement.  If the primary crime is saying "may have
                 been", there is no need for later clarification that testing
                 is required.  The "may have been" directly implies testing
                 is required and I think it was nice of the journalists to
                 state the implied outright instead of making us guess.  You
                 are so full of hatred that you'll take the most reasonable
                 and non-inflamatory statement such as "may have been" which
                 we all agree was in the same article as "requires more
                 testing" and turn it into some twisted bit of evil.  You're
                 really lost and out in the hinterland on this one.  There are
                 lots and lots of valid anti-Bush anti-Iraq-war things you
                 could go off on.  This isn't one of them.
           \_ Last I checked Dean's energy policy didn't cost $150 billion.
              \_ So it's ok because he was from a small state?  So Cheney's
                 crime wasn't that he did the same thing as Dean, just that
                 it cost more?  If Dean was from a big state or did this as
                 a member of the federal government then it would be bad?  So
                 a bank robber who gets away with $20 at gun point is ok but
                 if the bank had more cash on hand that day and it was $1000
                 then it would be really terrible?  Blind, blind, blind....
                 \_ There is no okay here.  There is, however, better and
                    worse.  Dean's energy policy not only didn't cost an
                    unfathomable $150b, it also did not do so by explicitly
                    lining the pockets of those who provided input.  If you
                    cannot see how what the Bush admin did was worse than this,
                    you'll need to start carrying a white cane yourself, so's
                    we can see that you can't see.
                    \_ Remember to vote for your lizard, so the other lizard
                       doesn't stay in office.
                       \_ take me to your lizard!
             \_ Anything to change the subject. You forgot to mention
                that Clinton got a blow job.
2004/1/15-16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11784 Activity:kinda low
1/14    recommendations on reliable web/email hosting companies?  they
        can be large 'national' companies or smaller local ones --Jon
        \_ http://he.net
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:11785 Activity:kinda low
1/14    I'm trying to flush output to disk after each write. This never writes
        to disk. What am i missing here (the file is being created):
        #!/usr/bin/perl
        $|=1;
        open(TEST,">test.txt") || die "Can't open: $!";
        print TEST "Testing\n";
        while(1) {}
        \_ call system's synch ?
           \_ $|=1 is supposed to flush after every print/write...
                \_ You forgot to call "select STDOUT" or "select TEST",
                   because $| bind to the last selected file descriptor.
                        \_ dear motd god, you're suppose to delete
                           useful replies. where are you?
                           \_ not even the censorbotidiot has the nerve to
                              kill this perfectly helpful response.
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/Networking] UID:11786 Activity:kinda low
1/14    I am getting DSL for the first time.  The instruction from SBC says
        that I have to install stuff from their CD and leave the modem on for
        10 days for them to "maximize the speed."  I don't really want to
        install their custom browser and god-knows-what.  Can I just ignore
        their instructions and still get the highest speed possible?
        \_ do the entire install, then afterward, just use the EnterNet
           shortcut to get your computer on the net.
        \_ Yes, but you need to buy a router. You also need to have an
           external modem. You will need to check if it's USB or Ethernet.
           If you insist on a direct PC
           connection you can get away with only installing the
           Enternet software. However, using software to connect
           to ADSL PPOE is just eating up mem and cpu cycles. Oh,
           and you do have to install the software at least ONCE to
           establish your new DSL account login unless you have
           an existing sbc/yahoo account that works. You can email
           me if you need more detailed instructions. -williamc
        \_ you do not need to install their crap if you have XP.
           \_You do if you don't already have an existing account. You
             need to login somehow with their software the first time
             and fill out the registration crap. Then just deepsix it.
           otherwise if you don't have XP, good luck, since SBC-
           Yahoo fucked my computer up. had to reinstall everything
           after I installed their lousy software.
          \_ You can ignore it.  If you're going to configure your router to
             dial the PPP link, you need to rember that your username is not
             'johnqsodan' but actually 'johnqsodan@sbcglobal.net'.  Also, config
              your router to use DHCP.
             \_Technically, this isn't really necessary. You can use a static
               IP Address if you so desire (very useful for running things
               like Solaris or Linux where you want a static IP so you can
               ftp to the boxes, etc.).
             Alternately, just use whatever PPP dialer your OS has and use DHCP
             I don't know if it matters if you leave it connected for 10 days,
             but if you're using a router, that shouldn't be too inconvenient.
        \_ I'd strongly suggest a cheap firewall/NAT/router box.  You can even
           get a wireless one for about $60-$70, and it greatly simplifies the
           process.
           \_ I recommend the D-Link DI-624
              \_ if their wireless cards give any indication of the performance
                 of their other products, i'll never buy dlink again.
              \_ Isn't that one of the models that suffers from the constant
                 dropping of ssh terms? (after 15 minutes of inactivity)?
          \_ Make sure that they give you the ethernet DSL modem, and NOT the
             USB crap. The EnterNet s/w will mess up your computer, no doubt
             about that. Uninstall as soon as possible. Ditto the advice on
             buying a router. Get one with a hardware-based firewall with a
             packet inspector thingie (e.g. SMC). Wireless is great, too,
             but get ZoneAlarm Pro or similar.
        \_ Wow, what a fucking mess!  I've got a cable modem and never had to
           worry, know, or think about any of this shit.  They plug in the
           box, make sure it can ping, and get the fuck out of my house.  No
           login crap, no stupid software, no custom anything.  It just works.
           \_ here, here. But they're paying 40% less than you are.
              What's the deal with PPPoE anyway? Why does SBC use it?
              \_ I'm paying $45/month which includes the hardware rental.  When
                 the standard changed and I needed a new box, they swapped it
                 out as part of the service (ie: free).  40% less/month but
                 dealing with all that bullshit doesn't look worth it.  I truly
                 have always-on.  No login.  No PPPoe.  No account.  And I can
                 plug in more devices into the same switch my cable modem is
                 plugged into, turn on dhcp and they all get their own valid
                 public IP addresses with no extra billing or bullshit.  How
                 much exactly does DSL cost these days?  Last I knew it was
                 about the same as cable.
                 \_ $26.95/month for SBC-Yahoo DSL, free dsl-modem
                    self-install kit, no set up charge, 1-year contract
                    You ought to call your cable company, ask to be
                    matched to the DSL price, else claim you might switch
                      \_ I think you have to agree to use SBC for local toll or
                         long-distance to get that deal.
                         \_ No. At least not in Bay Area, CA
                    \_ Isn't this total crap, like 356k download?
                       \_ My cable rate is 1.5 down and 256k up.  What is this
                          $27/month DSL rate proving for speed?
        \_ Thanks for all the replies!  Actually I use a mac.  Does the rest
           of the advices above all apply to Mac as well?  Can I login the
           the 1st time service with a router instead of directly?  (I ask
           because there does not seem to be a way to change MAC address,
           and self-install is not supported for a router connection.)
        \_ Install the stuff, register, get your PPPoE account *AND* the
           yahoo freebies (bigger email inbox, yahoo web-mail etc.)
           then uninstall the SBC software and do PPPoE thru a
             Linksys/Dlink router (and it gives you a firewall & allows you to
             share the broadband connection, very cheap now $20-40 with rebate).
           You can also use their SBC web-site to register instead of loading
           the software, or if you get a clueful fone-support tech, they
           can do it for you. BTW,the SBC install software is buggy and
           can hang at the very last step, but you can just ignore that part.
           \_ and after you leave their dsl service, will they turn off your
              yahoo account like aol does with screen names?
           \_ Why does SBC ask new user  "leave the DSL modem (not the
              computer) on for 10 days after first use" to "maximize speed"?
              What can that do?
2004/1/15 [Computer/Rants] UID:11787 Activity:nil
1/14    Forget India, the next outsourcing trend is South America:
        http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/040113/sb200401120920_1.html
        \_ Yeah, I want to outsource to South America, good idea with
         the Argentine government in near shambles, Shining Path getting
         back together after the failed reforms in Chile, Columbia continually
         drug smuggling and Venezualan guerillas bombing pipelines on a daily
         basis. It makes the Kashmeer fueds look like small potatos.
         Anyway, if I was going to outsource south I'd be thinking Mexico
         before any of the S. American countries.
         \_ Oh yeah and India was such a bright choice being under constant
            thread of nuclear destruction for years?  Mexico?  It has similar
            problems to SA, as well as rampant corruption, an entirely fucked
            up federal government and a hot and cold running indian rebellion
            in the south.  Good call.  Mr CTO?  You're fucking fired!
2004/1/15 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:11788 Activity:high
1/14    Re: deep blue thread yesterday.  I actually met the designer of deep
        blue, Feng-Hsiung Hsu, a couple of times because he's a friend
        of my wife's family.  People just call him "deep blue".  :-)  After
        he left IBM, VCs started throwing money in his direction for his
        startup.  Not sure what happened to his company.  -taiwanese guy
        \_ my summary of this thread:
           <DEAD>www.ucomics.com/foxtrot/2004/01/13<DEAD>
           \_ Luddite!
        \_ I've read up on some URLs.  The Deep Blue team was allowed to
           modify the program between games in the tournament.  These
           modifications were made with the help of human grandmasters.
           Deep Blue didn't beat Kasparov.  Rather, Deep Blue with between-
           game tweaking by human grandmasters beat Kasparov.  That closes
           the issue in my book.  (That Kasparov went nuts and was incorrect
           in suggesting that Deep Blue was being modified during the game
           doesn't change the main point.)
           \_ Yes, but Kasparov consults (quite frequently) with fellow
              grandmasters during (when recessed) and between games. He also
              employs computers to look for variations. So the resources
              available to the Deep Blue team are available to Kasparov.
              Similarly between games Fischer would consult others for advise
              and modify his tactics according to past games. So it's not really
              fair to say that the Deep Blue team can't modify the program
              to reflect what essentially amounts to learning. A human tweaks
              himself between games, so why can't a computer program be
              tweaked in between games?
              \_ wait a second. he talks to grandmasters *during* games? how can
                 that be? that's like chess by committee. I think you're wrong
                 there. Or else grandmasters advising Deep Blue would be ok.
              \_ You could even argue that Deep Blue was "talking with
                 other grandmasters and improving its strategy" between games,
                 just like Kasparov could do the same.  But while it
                 sounds appealing, I'm kind of uneasy about this reasoning.
              \_ I think it would be better if neither side could do any out
                 side consulting or tweaking.
                 My gut feeling was that Kasparov was alone here, and
                 the corporate resources of IBM way outmatched him in the
                 between-game improvements.
           \_ Well in the end the machine played by itself each game. Being
              tweaked before and after games doesn't really change that. GK
              made some mistakes too. It's not like they would know what
              Kasparov would do in the next game.
              \_ Some would argue that the engine was so tweaked to play
                 Kasparov, that it wasn't a general engine, but rather a "beat
                 Kasparov" engine.  We'll never know, since it didn'y play
                 anyone else.
                 \_ That's true for any world-class chess player preparing
           the issue in my book.
                    for a match.  Such a player would spend a lot of time
                    optimizing his play for his opponent by studying his games,
                    preparing tailored opening surprises, etc.  -- ilyas
2004/1/15-16 [Uncategorized] UID:11791 Activity:moderate
1/14    A note on "hear hear": it was born from parliamentary proceedings,
        where a speaker's supporters would exclaim "hear hear", ie, "hear him,
        hear him".
        \_ drives me fucking crazy when people use "here here" instead.  grr.
           \_ uh, language changes over time.  deal, frenchy.
        \_ Then why not "listen listen"?
           \_ There's actually subtle differences in meaning there that would
              take a bit of explaining. Basically, "hear" implies more than
              just having listened. You can listen without understanding, or
              without hearing for that matter. Similar to looking/seeing.
        \_ More white imperial racism
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages] UID:11792 Activity:nil
1/14    Is there an enscript-esque tool for Win32 with a GUI?  I want to print
        source code including highlighting, formatting, etc.  Thanks.
        \_ Eclipse does a pretty good job of this, but it's a full featured IDE
           \_ UltraEdit too.
        \_ PrintFile32 -- it allows you to specify keywords for a language if
           it's not in the code.  Works great for C-like languages (I haven't
           really used it for other language families).
           http://www.lerup.com/printfile
        \_ the most lightweight is probably TextEdit
           \_ Thanks for the suggestions!  -op
              \_ Civility on the motd!?!  Begone!
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:11793 Activity:low
1/14    My gf doesn't know anything about unix so I end up changing her
        .spamassassin/user_prefs and .procmailrc. I've symlinked user_prefs
        to my own user_prefs and that seems to work. However, I'm unable to
        symlink .procmailrc to my own file... for some reason procmail doesn't
        pick up on other people's .procmail. What are some other remedies
        to this?
        \_ It could be part of the security model that symlinked files
           (especially ones linked to different user names) aren't trusted.
           \_ Indeed.  This is one of the "don't blame sendmail/procmail"
              things.  Just copy the file.
        \_ err, why don't you just copy?
                \_ because I don't want her pw and I'm tired of asking her
                   to type "cp ~tom/.procmailrc ~"
                   \_ Then tell her to put "cp ~tom/.procmailrc ~" in a
                      cronjob
                   \_ put it in her .cshrc or .login or whatever dotfiles you
                      have her using.  upon login should be good enough.  why
                      would she want the same filters you use anyway?
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:11794 Activity:nil
1/15    I need a small NAS-RAID (on the order of 500 gigs or so) for a bunch of
        developers. I was thinking of constructing one from parts using
        SATA and Linux. Anyone got a better idea? Purpose is mainly for
        NFS mounting, so it has to have decent (although not blazingly fast)
        performance. I don't care that much about hot-swappability. Needs to
        be RAID 1 or above (redundancy at 2x is enough). I was thinking of
        spending maybe 4K on it.
                \_ If you want to provide NFS access don't use linux. Linux
                   has terrible NFS performance/reliability. FreeBSD is much
                   better at NFS (if you want to stick with a free/open os).
        \_ Apple Xserve RAID 1TB (500GB usable RAID 1) @ $6K, free kool-aid.
           \_ I said, you're very phunny.  Do you make yourself happy with your
              little joke?
        \_ This is easily doable for the budget you have in mind.  SATA
           seems nice, but I haven't seen any real world results for
           performance and failures.  Considering that you can buy 250G
           disks for $300 or less, you can easily do 500 gigs.  Do RAID 5
           you'll get more space.
           \_ I haven't gotten a SATA board/drive yet, AFAYK how many
              SATA drives can I reasonably dump into a box? If I can
              dump 8 of them in there I'll get more drives. Also, are there
              any more oustanding issues with Linux NFS hooking up to Solaris?
              (clients here at the office are all solaris boxen).
              \_ There are no major issues with linux/solaris using nfs.  You
                 may have to tweak some mount options to get super performance
                 but frankly your developers are unlikely to know the diff.
                 There are cases available that have room for as many as 20
                 drives.  16 is more common.  8 fits in a 2u box.  You have
                 many options.  -MSG
                 \_ Our Solaris 8/9 clients have lots of problems with
                    with Linux servers. Only v2 seems to work well on
                    Linux servers.
                    \_ Depends on what you call "problems".  Will it work at
                       full speeds with default settings?  Usually not.  Will
                       you have to read a man page and change one or two nfs
                       client mount options?  Yes.  Oh!  Horrors!  -MSG
                        \_ I'm not talking about full speed. I'm talking
                           about problems such as multiple simultaenous
                           reads hanging nfsd or cases where a client
                           writes a file but the file ends up truncated on
                           the server. Even if the clients mount using v2
                           such problems occur on a weekly basis for ordinary
                           files (esp. for files larger than 1gb).
        \_ There's no reason at all to use SATA.  Just go get a case, stick
           in motherboard, any cpu, and 256 megs and an 8 port ware card.
           attach 8 cheap ass 80 gig IDE drives in a raid5 stripe and forget
           about it.  Total price is way under 4k.  If you want it mirrored,
           then get 8x160 drives and mirror 4x160 stripes instead of raid5.
           Mr. Motd Storage Guru signing off.
        \_ That SATA/SATAN joke wasn't even close to funny.  There's tons of
           terms you can make risque by changing a letter.
           \- if you are a solaris shop, why dont you just take sun you
              presumably already have and just spend all of your budget on
              a small HWraid. assuming you feel your time is valuable,
              this may be the most convenient thing to do. --psb
              \_ This is a pretty good idea, too, but be careful what you get
                 for an external array.  Some are really crappy and I've lost
                 entire raid sets when it decided to go JBOD on me after a
                 hwraid unit crash.  I've had good luck with Arena raid
                 arrays attached to different systems.  --MSG
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:11795 Activity:nil
1/15    Is mail from csua to yahoo still being filtered as bulk?  If so,
        how long has this been going on?
        \_ that's weird, i've been sending mail to friends with http://yahoo.com
           accounts without any difficulty
        \_ yes, and about 2-3 weeks
          \_ WTF is their problem?  Is there anything that we can do about
             it?  Or is it simply a matter of them designating any mail
             from csua as spam, no matter what?
             \_ just a guess, but if you look at the headers, the DES ident
                thing looks like a hash buster. perhaps yahoo's learning
                system is being fooled by this. -jl
                  \_ Is there anything root can do to change this? -op
                     \_ i retract this. i think soda's ip is just on their
                        shit list.
        \_ curiously, it seems that if mail from csua is sent somewhere else
           and auto-forwarded to yahoo, yahoo does not filter it.  could it
           be that one of the mail servers on the route from csua to yahoo is
           triggering yahoo's filters?
        \_ X-YahooFilteredBulk: 128.32.112.233
           \_ What makes you think that? I am sure we deliver mail directly.
               \_ Then why is yahoo filtering it as spam?  I guess they are
                  in a competition with hotmail to see who sucks the most.
                  \_ I don't know why, but your theory is bunk. Look at
                     the headers on a message delivered to yahoo.
                     \_ ok, you're right.  mail from csua is sent directly
                        to yahoo.  Still, mail that originates from csua and
                        that arrives at yahoo via an intermediate server is
                        not filtered.
                        \_ You're not being specific enough to be useful.  Are
                           you relaying a csua address through another machine?
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Apps, Reference/Religion] UID:11796 Activity:nil
1/14    The Bible as IRC chatlog
        http://www.ircbible.destrukto-theater.nl
2004/1/15-16 [Recreation/House] UID:11797 Activity:nil
1/14    Is it better to have an arm rest on your chair?  Without it I have
        no palce to put my arms, but with it sometimes it gets in the way.
        \_ better with. lets your shoulders rest
        \_ better without.  When resting your arms, let them hang down at the
           sides.  If you rest your arms *while* typing, you're cutting
           circulation to your hands while exercising, which makes RSI much more
           likely.  I've helped several people who have had RSI by 1) showing
           them stretches for their arms, 2) adjusting their chair, 3) buying
           these: http://www.mousemitt.com/wrist.html and 4) removing the
           armrests.
           \_ Ergonomics expert: what is the medically correct rule for chair
              adjustment?
        \_ sorry, but I'm a bit weird maybe.  i like a chair with 1 arm rest
           on the left.  the one on the right tends to get in the way while the
           left one provides a tiny amount of support at my elbow but not
           enough to cut off circulation or anything like that.  typing for
           about 25 years now with no signs of RSI or anything else.
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media] UID:11798 Activity:nil
1/14    this is kinda cool: a plugin that automatically sets your yahoo
        away msg to the song you're playing in winamp.
        http://www.brokenvaporware.com/products/msgramp
        (won't work for the guy below... maybe someone can make one for
        iTunes.... or maybe a generic one? search some specified tree
        of music files and assume any open file-handle is being played?)
2004/1/15-16 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Consumer/Audio] UID:11799 Activity:nil
1/14    Has anybody else tried iTunes (the player) simply as a winamp
        substitute?  I'm nearly weeping at how *nice* it is.  Would someone
        kindly point me toward the kool-aid?
        \_ does it play mp3s, or does it need to convert to their format?
           \_ it plays mp3s.
        \_ what does it do that is so improved over winamp?
           \_ free kool-aid
             \_ english translation?
           \_ I'm not a mac/ipod person but I love iTunes. It's got a great
              UI for organizing and finding your music if you have a lot of
              files. For me it's replaced 4 programs (player, CD ripper,
              CD burner, and id3-tagger) and it does all of their functions
              well. It's also cool to use it at work if your coworkers use
              it because you can check out everyone's music at your leisure.
              Can someone explain the kool-aid references? I've heard this
              before but I don't get it. - !op
              \_ google "jim jones" and cult
                 \_ Wait wait, so anything Apple related is a cult?  You're
                    so phunny!
                    \_ I didn't say Apple was a cult, but I was pointing them
                         to the origin of the kool-aid reference.
                    \_ yes, they managed to sell millions of people a device
                       with a non-rechargable and non-replacable battery.  and
                       the evil little things continue to sell like hotcackes.
                       if that isn't a cult I don't know what is.  I don't
                       know of any other company that could get away with that
                       sort of shit without 99% return rates.
                       \_ non-rechargable?!?!  Why do I not believe you?
                          \_ http://ipodbatteryfaq.com
                             \_ thanks for the faq.  as it says, it is going
                                to cost bucks to get the battery problem taken
                                care of.  it's a cult.  and to the person who
                                doesn't believe me, don't interrupt.  i moved
                                your thread down here where it belongs, not in
                                the middle of my statements.  it's rude and
                                makes the whole thread hard to read.
                                \_ I posted both the question, AND the faq.
                                   your statement was false - it IS
                                   rechargable, just not easily replaced.
                                   \_ My error in word choice but not intent.
                                      I intended to say that once the battery
                                      is dead it is dead.  I did not mean that
                                      you get 6-8 hours of play and then it
                                      turns off forever.  I stand by my
                                      statement that only a cult could sell a
                                      device by the millions that will die in
                                      18-24 months and just be dead without
                                      shelling out an additional $50 to $100.
2004/1/15-16 [Uncategorized] UID:11800 Activity:nil
1/14    insane!: http://dane.6server.com/Milena/page_01.htm (not work safe)
        \_ Most of us can find our own porn, thank you.
        \_ It's just another fat woman.  Look at her waistline.
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/20    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:January:15 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>