Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:December:16 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2003/12/16 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:11467 Activity:kinda low
12/16   Anyone here speak procmail?  Can you please tell me what the
        following means:
        procmail -f someone@somewhere.com -t -Y -a  -d mylocaluser
        this is from a 'ps'.    mylocaluser is a user on my box.
        [formatd]
        \_ it's all in the man pages.  that's all anyone else here would do.
2003/12/16 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:11468 Activity:nil
12/15   On a home windows XP machine, how important is the user password?
        What are the ways that someone could log onto that windows box?
        I only know about MS's telnet server that I guess would allow it.
        What other crap could be enabled by default?
        \_ not too important. disable remote desktop and shares.
2003/12/16 [Computer/Companies/Ebay] UID:11469 Activity:kinda low
12/15   What's your experience with CheckFree?  Better than paypal?
        \_ they seem like apples and oranges.
            \_ that's basically what i was about to say.
            \_ Ok my question was silly.  I won a bid on ebay and both paypal
               and checkfree are payment options.  Which one should I choose
               and why?  I lack experience with both.
2003/12/16 [Finance/Investment] UID:11470 Activity:nil
12/15   http://money.cnn.com/2003/12/15/technology/jobs/index.htm?cnn=yes
        \_ so what?  why post this link?
2003/12/16 [Uncategorized] UID:11471 Activity:nil
12/15   http://users.skynet.be/treet.ta-tra/cut_filled_with_playmobiel.html
        Not work safe (porn alert), just... odd.
        \_ what is going on there??
2003/12/16 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:11472 Activity:nil
12/15   Months ago, some guy suggest to set up a FreeBSD / Linux box at front
        of Exchange Server to serve as a sort of MTA which greatly enhance
        the security of the email infrastructure.  I would like to know more
        on how to do that.  Any pointers?  Thanks.
        \_ the idea is by having inbound connections from the internet connect
           to the bsd/linux box you protect your exchange server from any
           security vulnerabilities associated w/ IIS (specifically the MTA
           piece of IIS). setting it up can be as simple as setting up the
           box w/ most defaults and being sure to set your MX for your domain
           on the inside to your exchange server... now you should at least
           disable relaying from the internet as well.
        \_ It's just a mail proxy that runs SA or whatever and then reforwards
           the surviving mail to exchange.
2003/12/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11473 Activity:moderate
12/15   Saddam almost blown to bits!: (cnn.com)
        They heard noises from below. They were about to execute a "clearing
        procedure" -- firing into the hole or dropping a grenade into it --
        when someone saw upraised hands belonging to a bearded, bedraggled
        man. The man had a pistol but did not fire it. When the soldiers
        assisted the man from the hole, he said, in English: "I am Saddam
        Hussein. I am the president of Iraq. I want to negotiate."
        - jctwu
        \_ so he's back working for the CIA then?
        \_ weak!  his sons fought like heros, and he himself is willing to
           be captured alive and face trial which is nothing but unjust
           humiliation.
           \_ Humiliation?  That's a bizarre arab concept that didn't appear
              in our press until the palestinians whined constantly about
              humiliation since they had no other real beef with the jews in
              comparison to how other arabs treated and still treat them.
           \_ Unjust humiliation?  You know, I have a real hard time feeling
              much sympathy.
              \_ of course.  You would have real hard time to see why this
                is a war of pure aggression, as we are still trying to
                find excuse to justify our invasion.
                \_ He will face justice on Earth and in heaven,
                   says acid bath victim
                   http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1041100/posts
                   \_ So shall we (ok, only in heaven), who provided him
                      the chemical agents, and kept quiet when he was
                      acid bathing the kurds.
                        \_ If Reagan/Bush had wanted to interfere
                           your parents and their associates would have
                           been screaming bloody murder about all of the
                           people killed and state sovereignty, just as
                           you do today; sorry you're argument is inane.
                           It was politically inexpedient at the time.
                           The difference is Bush was willing to
                           expend the political capital.
                           And please stop propagating lies: there
                           was a university transfer
                           of two biological agents for research.
                           Again, apart from the strains, in terms of
                           equipment for chemical weapons
                           it was supplied by Europe, (France, Germany)
                           Russia and China.  How do you reconcile
                           this with their position today?
                           \_ Ah,  "politically inexpedient".  What an
                              excuse.  Saddam could also say that if
                              he didn't keep the Kurds and Shiites under
                              control those two groups would butcher the
                              Sunnis the moment they have the chance, or
                              at the very least, fragment his country.
                              He could argue that he invaded Iran to
                              stop the Shiite brand of Islamic militancy
                              and its threat to Iraq.  He could argue that
                              he invaded Kuwait because Kuwait is stealing
                              his country's oil, its lifeblood.  The person
                              above is talking about justice and heaven, and
                              last I check (be it the Koran or the Bible),
                              God says to do the right thing, not to do
                              the politically expedient thing.
                              \_ Saddam could argue anything he likes but it
                                 wouldn't be true.  All you've done is create
                                 a short list of Saddam's crimes.
                                 \_ Crimes?  Nah, they ain't crimes.  They
                                    are all politically necessary, or should
                                    I say, expedient ... snicker.
                                    \_ If you're not interested in discussing
                                       anything don't bother scribbling on the
                                       motd.  Oh ho, you're so clever, snicker,
                                       yadda whatever.
                                       \_ Thanks for admitting that your
                                          "politically inexpedient" excuse has
                                          been debunked.
                           \_ The deadliest weapon in the world is a
                              Marine and his rifle.  It is your killer
                              instinct which must be harnessed if you expect
                              to survive in combat.  Your rifle is only a tool.
                              It is the hard heart that kills.  If your killer
                              instincts are not clean and strong, you will
                              hesitate at the moment of truth.  You will not
                              kill.  You will become dead Marines.  And then
                              you will be in a world of shit, because Marines
                              are not allowed to die without permission!
                              Do you maggots understand?
                              \_ SIR! YESIR!
                   \_ So shall we, who provided him the chemical agents.
2003/12/16 [Politics/Domestic] UID:11474 Activity:nil
12/15   Republican Congress hard at work:
        http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.3687
        \_ Interesting: Messrs. Ose and Smith neglected to include the more
           traditionally profane "goddamn" and "damn," as well as that rap
           favorite, "bitch."  And why include the word "piss"?
        \_ that's funny, I was actually just listening to "startin'
           up a posse" by Anthrax when I read this.  Look up the lyrics
           if you care.
        \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ YOU are the one who hates america- we patriots are sick of your
              corporate masters raping our beloved country.  Go back to Nazi
              Germany where you can oppress everyone who isn't exactly like
              you!  We will fight you no matter whose apron you hide behind!
              \_ Mmm... easy catch.
                 \_ hardly worth it.  anything that easy should be thrown
                    back and allowed to season a good long while.
           \_ if you love America, then, America should modeled after
                Saudi Arabia, where Moral Police driving in green police
                cars roaming freely to enforce proper moral values in the
                society.
              \_ wow, that's totally non sequiter.
        \_ You know they're just doing this because they hate Bono.
2003/12/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11475 Activity:nil
12/15   How about a break from Saddam?  This is something you geeks would
        find entertaining:
        http://csua.org/u/5a0
        \_ This is similar to what was found when someone did neural-net
           robots for netrek as a project--they just learned to butt-torp. -tom
        \_ What a cruddy article.  Long introduction, then four sentences
           that said what they wanted to say.
        \_ This is becoming a modern urban legend.  Watch the Two Towers
           documentaries for the truth: the soldiers were programmed to run if
           they couldn't see an enemy (to close the distance more quickly).
           With many soldiers, they couldn't see the enemy or were facing the
           wrong way.  Hence they ran away.
           \_ No facts!  No facts on the motd!
2003/12/16 [Uncategorized] UID:11476 Activity:nil
12/15   http://www.pantsfactory.org/?action=comments&linkid=872
        Do you suck at folding shirts? This video shows an alternate method -
        may be useful for many geeks who suffer from crinkled shirts...
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign] UID:11477 Activity:kinda low
12/16   Silly question maybe, but what's the difference between "people"
        and "persons"? A quick google didn't seem to help. Thanks.
        \_ "people" is a real word.  "persons" is some twisted thing used by
           paper pushing govnerment types starting in the mid 90s in an attempt
           to make their crap sound more professional.  real people don't use
           the word persons in everyday conversation or writing.  it's
           dehumanising.
           \_ actually, if you look in the OED, persons has been used for at
              least 500 years. persons is the proper plural form of person,
              but a secondary sense of people is persons, so that is acceptable
              as well. if you want to be formal and precise, it is "persons"
              though.
              \_ e.g. "You persons can go fuck yourself" is very formal.
           \_ I agree.
           \_ persons is a good new word.  people has too many meanings or
              shades of meaning, and it can be ambiguous which one is being
              used.  My guess would be that it started not with government
              types but legal types.
              \_ Once again, you all need to read this essay:
                 George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language"
                 http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
                 \- while i am a fan of this article, i think Orwell's
                    complaint would be more with say using "individuals"
                    instead of "people". let me call some of my people
                    about the person/people distinction. --psb
                    \- hmm, it looks like "recently" persons was weakly
                       for a specific number [the 12 persons on the jury]
                       but people was for a vague number [many people in
                       the court room], but it is acknowledged "persons"
                       is giving way to "people". however there are some
                       contexts where persons still seems right ...
                       "persons under 17 will not be admitted without
                       supervision". --psb
                       \_ thank you psb!  I knew the "people good" "persons
                          bad" guy was wrong.  - a once-in-a-while psb fan
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11478 Activity:high
12/16   Orson Scott Card demonstrating yet again why I can't stand his books:
        http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004435
        \_ What, because he doesn't agree with your politics?
        \_ jesus this guy is free associating left and right and labeling his
           drivel as fact. i thought ender's game was ok though.
           but maybe he thinks enders game actually happened.
           \_ His politics have never made sense.  He calls himself a Democrat
              for some bizarre reason, but his actual opinions are a synthesis
              of Ayn Rand, the Old Testament, and the Wizard of Oz.  I can't
              stand his books for almost the same reason - even when he's
              making a good point, he doesn't have the courage of his
              convictions.  For instance, check out his statements about
              the meaning of Enders Game - he's the only one in the world who
              seems to think its not anti-war.  He's also made some really
              bizarre statements vis-a-vis the "Peter" character and the
              subject of child abuse.
              \_ Maybe he doesn't like the way people define "anti-war."
                 It never suggests in the book that humans never should
                 have fought the buggers at all, just that they shouldn't
                 have eradicated them.  It the humans hadn't defended
                 themselves in the first two wars, it's pretty clear
                 that the human race would have been destroyed instead,
                 for almost the same reason.
                 \_ No, it doesn't suggest that humans shouldn't have eradicated
                    them.  It and the sequels show that under the circumstances,
                    the humans had to fight "us vs. them" because there was no
                    way to communicate and negotiate.  Indeed, the lesson is to
                    use force last of all, but when you use force, use
                    overwhelming, overpowering force so that the enemy never
                    stands up again.  That's the lesson Ender learns over and
                    over again.
              \_ This is somewhat changing the subject but...
                 Someone told me the Wizard of Oz was a book/movie about
                 communism, but aside from the fact that the midgets live in a
                 Potemkin Village, I don't see it.  Anyone have any insight?
                 \_ The Wizard of Oz is a godless Communist screed.  And not
                    only that, but flouridation is an insidious Communist plot
                    to suck out and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
                    \_ Hoping for a serious response on motd... silly me.
                       \_ A serious response would be called for if it was a
                          serious idea.
                \_ It's not about communism, it's about a political
                   movement in the late 1800's known as populism.  Its
                   very pro-populism.  Google on it.
                   \_ Specifically, the Wizard of Oz is a character re-mapping
                      of the political figures central to the Silver Standard
                      controversy. My understanding is that it only became a
                      popular children's story by accident - though this sort
                      of thing happens more often than you'd think.
                      http://paws.wcu.edu/mulligan/www/oz.html for one
                      summary.
                      \_ Oh jesus.  You can do this with any book.  This is like
                         the guy that had the pet theory that the Harry Potter
                         books were an allegory promoting Libertarian thought.
                         \_ Did you actually do any research before this
                            statement, or are you just talking out of your
                            butt again?
                            \_ I read your article.  This sort of allegory is
                               bunk unless directly claimed by the author.
                               A little googling will show you that many
                               scholars have many wildly different allegorical
                               interpretations of Baum's book, which just shows
                               how ridiculous it all is.  I'm sure you can
                               find a way to show that, say, Terminator 3 is
                               an allegory for the women's rights movement.
                               That doesn't mean you're any more correct than
                               the person that says its an allegory for WWI.
                         \_ The 'Harry Potter supports Libertarian throught'
                            idea seems dodgy, but the Harry Potter books do
                            contain many thinly veiled references to Britain's
                            pervasive class system that would be lost on most
                            folks living on this side of the Atlantic.
        \_ Look we are war. We will be at war with terrorism for at least
           a couple of generations. Anyone who questions President Bush
           during a time of war is a traitor and terrorist sympathizer.
           Any questions?
           \_ I didn't know Ann Coulter wrote to the motd!  Go Ann!  *drool*
              --Ann Coulter #1 fan
              \_ "Oh my god!  Your cock is so BIG and TAX FREE!"
                 \_ Hi ilya.  You can't get over that one, can you?  Sticks
                    with ya.  --lye
                    \_ wasn't ilya
                    \_ Yeah, lye.  How could you soil my good name like that?
                       My polite indignation knows no bounds!  -- ilyas
                       \_ Consider it humbly withdrawn.  Not that I have any
                          reason to believe anything that anyone says on the
                          motd.  --lye
                          \_ Gee lye, do you have a hangup about people lying?
                             \_ No.  I always lye.  --lye
        \_ He doesn't address Bush's WMD justification for attacking Iraq.
           Lamer.
2003/12/16-17 [Uncategorized] UID:11479 Activity:low
12/16   Texas police hard at work!
        http://tinyurl.com/zhej
        \_ Relevant Texas Law, for those of you who are interested in such
           things:
           link:csua.org/u/5aj
2003/12/16 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11480 Activity:very high
12/16   http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&u=/nm/20031216/wl_nm/iraq_saddam_vatican_dc_2&printer=1
                \- gee i guess the bush administration will only be
                   inviting in protestant deminiations to convert
                   the godless heathens --psb
        I agree with the Vatican on this one.  There was no need to humiliate
        the man.  He's a former head of state and prisoner of war and should
        be treated with the respect due to such a man.  I feel bad for the guy.
        \_ Me, too! I mean he lost his sons to those evil Americans!
           I mean what's a few thousand dead worth a few moments of standard
           doctor checkup after living underground for so long without a shave!
        \_ Let's be clear:  I opposed the premature invasion of Iraq, but
           I am not at all displeased to see Saddam Hussein toppled and his
           regime destroyed.  Given what he did to his own people, the
           Mussolini treatment would not have been too severe for him. Now,
           does showing embarassing videos of the man being inspected for
           lice and disease help the coalition maintain peace and bring about
           a swifter transition to a real Iraqi government? Not in the least.
           Yet another PR blunder for the Bush team.
           \_ PR Blunder? Obviously you haven't seen the polls. I'm glad
              aren't in charge. I bet you think the Bay of Pigs was a bad
              idea also?
              \_ Ah, dear simpleton, let me lay it out for you in lyrics
                 your little brain might comprehend easier:
                 "For every thing (turn, turn, turn)
                  there is a season (turn, turn, turn)."
                 The Prez' invasion was, like many sexual acts perpetrated
                 by semifunctional adolescents, premature.
                 \_ yeah we should have waited until he started offering
                    $100K for every suicide bomber's family
                          \- we should have invaded iraq on behalf of
                             israel?
                    \_ No, we should have waited until we had proof of his
                       WMDs, -OR- we should have declared our mission to
                       rid the world of oppressive regimes, sacked Saudi
                       Arabia, Burma, and Uzbekistan, and then, with that
                       moral justification firmly established, gone into
                       Iraq.
                       \_ One at a time..
                          \_ Yeah? Then why not this one?
                             http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3324871.stm
              \_ After all, polls are the only thing that matters.  Who cares
                 about morality, I'm in the majority!
        \_ I have to ask.  Is it really all that humiliating to have
           medical examination?  I fail to see why this footage is all
           that humiliating.  It's probably all they had on hand for the
           press that wasn't either secret or REALLY humiliating.
           \_ They probably had footage of him showered and shaved, wearing a
              jumpsuit and glowering at the camera.
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:11481 Activity:very high 53%like:11187
12/16   Bush signs anti-spam bill:
        http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/16/bush.bills.ap/index.html
        \_ This is not an anti-spam bill, though it is being marketed that
           way. It is more of a pro-spam bill.
           \_ Makes perfect sense in BushSpeak, where a bill to enable
              more clearcutting is called the "Healthy Forests Initiative"
              and a bill to remove civil rights is called the "Patriot Act."
              \_ Hey, it was all that dead wood from beetle infestation
                 that fueled the SoCal fires.
                 \_ The logging industry doesn't cut dead trees.
                 \_ Slightly off topic, but on a recent trip up Highway 1
                    I noticed whole swaths of oak trees that seem to be
                    dead.  From what I've read, this is not directly due to
                    a beatle infestation but a virus which weakens the tree
                    and then makes them more susceptible to the beatles.
                    Its very eerie to see a whole bunch of trees hit this way.
                    Very post-apocalyptic.
                    \_ the massive tree death on the Kenai peninsula is
                       caused by beetles.  Not that this has anything to
                       do with Bush's timber industry giveaways, just
                       pointing this out while we're on the beetle
                       tree death topic.  it got a lot of press recently
                       because the infestation was brought on by rising
                       temperatures in Alaska--which will continue to rise
                       thanks to Bush's giveaways to the oil industries.
                       \_ Care to explain the Alaska/CA Beetle thing?
                 \_ True, but the Healthy Forest Initiative was about increasing
                    the logging of healthy trees.
           \_ what's your justification for this (calling it pro-spam)?
              http://csua.org/u/5ah
              \_ Spam law analysis: http://csua.org/u/5ai
                 And use an URL shortener!
2003/12/16-17 [Recreation/Celebrity/MichaelJackson] UID:11482 Activity:moderate
12/16   Saddam should hire Johnny Cochran.  He might pull another OJ.
        \_ More likely he'll go for Geragos, who's already got Scott Peterson
           and Michael Jackson
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11483 Activity:nil
12/16   Why the capture of Saddam, although making the world a better place,
        is ultimately a "diversion". -sfgate article on what liberals think
        http://csua.org/u/5ae
2003/12/16-17 [Uncategorized] UID:11484 Activity:nil
12/16   Hehehe, I never liked the looks of that bookstore anyway...
        http://csua.org/u/5ad
        \_ It must've been the right wing activists immitating 9-11!
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11485 Activity:nil
12/16   Sadam Hussein is an actor and the US government is planning to
        plant WMD in Iraq: http://www.theonion.com
        \_ Nothing on the onion says anything like that.  What in Sam Hill
           are you talkin' about, boy?
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11486 Activity:high
12/16   Why do some people still try to claim that the US did not sell
        Iraq chemical weapons? The evidence is overwhelming:
        http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html
        \_ The author's evidence is tautological.  He says, "There were
        \_ The only evidence the author provides is "There were
           chemical weapons sold..." so it must be so, no citations
           no references, nothing.
           As for cyanide it is ubiquitous in industrial manufacturing.
           For example, there are liters of cyanide compounds in Cory
           Hall.
           Here is what was provided:
           The Corporations That Supplied Iraq's Weapons Program
           http://www.thememoryhole.org/corp/iraq-suppliers.htm
           \_ No references? How about the reference to this PBS program:
          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/etc/arming.html
           http://www.thememoryhole.org/corp/iraq-suppliers.htm
                \_ It is good you mention Alcatal, as that is the one compnay
                   listed on the other link.  What is described is illicit
                   clandestine purchase of a chemical weapon precurssor,
                   which was shut down when discovered by Customs.  This
                   completely different from the assertion that the US govt
                   (Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.) armed Iraq.  As for visiting in
                   1967, well the US military hosts delegates from virtually
                   every other military in the world, including enemies (eg.
                   Soviets during the Cold War).
        \_ What do you think are the chances that Saddam will be able to call
           Rumsfeld and Cheney as defense witnesses?  And if he's denied, how
           much will that help him?
           \_ You people are bizarre.  Here you have one of the crulest most
              sadistic tyrants in the 20th century and all you can think
              about is indicting Rumseld, who was a civilian throughout
              the period in question, and Cheney who was House Minority
              Whip and Secretary of Defense, for concocted conspiracies
              they were not involved in.
              \_ Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense when Saddam attacked Iran.
                 We sent him weapons to help kill the 'evil' Iranians.  When
                 Cheney was CEO of Halliburton, he lobbied to be allowed to
                 do contracting in Iraq and said the sanctions hurt
                 Halliburton more than Iraq and should be lifted.
                 \_ Rumsfeld was Fords Sec of Defense.  So did every
                    CEO of every international corporation.  Cheney has
                    been on the record opposed to sanctions for most of
                    his career.
                 \_ Lobbying is now a criminal offense?  Golly....
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Reference/History/WW2/Japan] UID:11487 Activity:high
12/16   Do Japanese companies ever make killing games (e.g. killing Germans,
        police squad, sniper games, etc)? I've noticed that most of the
        Konami games are like DDR with cartoony characters. Even Virtua
        Cop looks cartoony. Do they have laws against violence or somethin'?
        \_ No really, you aren't that stupid, right?
          \_ no really, after killing about 100 Jap soldiers in Medal of
             Honor Rising Sun, I started to wonder why Japanese companies
             don't make games that kill American soldiers and glorify
             Japanese Imperialism.
             \_ Because we were the good guys and the modern Japanese want
                to set themselves apart from their evil WWII selves.
             \_ Now I'm curious. Do Germans play Medal of Honor Allied
                Assault? Do they play Wolfenstein? Do Japanese play
                Rising Sun? Do Vietnamnese play Vietcong?
                \_ http://penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-11-26&res=l
                        \_ rave reviews? That IS kind of odd. Thx for the lnk
2003/12/16 [Uncategorized] UID:29719 Activity:nil
12/16   What's up with soda's outgoing net?  I'm connected to soda, but I
        can't use links, ping etc.
2003/12/16 [Uncategorized] UID:29720 Activity:nil 80%like:29564
12/16   All you of Earth...are idiots!
        \_ All your base are belong to us!
2003/12/16-17 [Finance/Banking, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:29721 Activity:very high
12/16   Pusan Market on telegraph no longer sells K-pop CDs.  Any other place
        around Berkeley that sells K-pop CDs?
        \_ No, but do you know where I can get chacharoni noodles?
           \_ Doesn't Pusan Market have them?  Also, try the real thing at
              the noodle house next to Koryo Sushi on Telegraph.
              \_ I don't know.  I'm just a lazy white boy looking for instant
                 chacharoni.
        \_ What the hell are you TV magic queers talking about?
           \_ What the hell is a "TV magic queer?"
              \_ http://www.snpp.com/episodes/CABF14
                 \_ I missed that line in the episode.  Thanks.  Now I have
                    a new phrase of the day.
           \_ Best.  Motd.  Post.  Ever.
              \_ Much obliged.  But I still want to know what the hell they're
                 talking about.
                 \_ K-pop is Korean music.  There's a Korean grocery store on
                    telegraph that used to sell them, but they don't sell 'em
                    anymore.
2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29722 Activity:very high
12/16   http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82
        Saddam and Rumsfeld shaking hands and talking arms.  He was our
        bastard back then.  What happened?
        \_ He turned on us.
           \_ Wait...so bad guys are okay as long as they're on our side?
              I thought WMDs didn't matter, and we were there to wipe out
              a bad guy?  Can't... handle... hypocrisy... head... exploding...
                \_ Are you really this naive and stupid?  Sometimes you have
                   bargain with the devil.  Iran was (and remains)
                   clearly the more dangerous threat.
                   \_ Nah, the most dangerous threat is GW Bush and his
                      free-spending administration.  Oh, and our lovely
                      ally Saudi Arabia, from whence most of the 911
                      bombers and Osama himself hail from.
                   \_ No, *YOU* are stupid.  Iran is the *ONLY* muslim nation
                      in the middle east
                      which has a true democratic government, eventhough their
                      power is not seperated in the same manner as ours is.
                      If we didn't support the invasion of Iran by Iraq,
                      we wouldn't have to deal with Saddam right now, after
                      166 billion dollars and still don't see real way out of
                      this mass.
                      \_ Iran?  Democracy? You've got a really twisted idea
                         of what deomcracy is or you know nothin about how
                         their country is run.  Sigh.  I have been trolled.
              \_ We didn't think he'd use WMDs.  Up until then, Saddam was
                 our secular ally against the more worrisome Islamic
                 revolution.
                 \_ Which, incidentally, we precipitated by sending the CIA
                    to install the Shah in the 1950s.  But never mind about
                    that now.
                        \_ No, you are completely wrong.
                           The Shahs father acended to power in the 1920s.
                           Mossadeq was making overtures to the Soviets.
                    \_ I don't know about the "you are completely wrong"
                       poster, but overthrowing Iran's government was really
                       for the oil (at the same time guarding against
                       Communist expansion) that time. ;-)
           \_ No, Dubya wanted a ratings boost.  Saddam's still our bastard.
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