Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:November:25 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2003/11/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic] UID:11214 Activity:nil
11/24   battlestar galactica is back
        \_ cyborg Cylons!?! WTF?! Boycott! Go buy the DVD box set
           instead - a much better investment in time.
        \_ I think it is good that Starbuck is going to be a girl.
           I think that character will play better as a female.
           That being said, and although i will certainly be tuning in,
           I don't really have much hope. The second main guy they talk
           about in that link is from the ST_TNG_ and _DS9_ and those
           shows both mostly sucked ass.  Also any time someone in SF
           talks about how it is really all about the characters, their
           show sucks.  (of course, it is a small sample size of shows
           that all suck.  I don't understand how two of the best shows
           \_ [added at the top because the rest of the replies are OT]
              SciFi has a real hit (Dune, Children of Dune) and miss (every-
              thing else) ratio with their original material.  BG could go
              either way.  As for ST:TNG and DS9, your opinion is noted and
              scoffed at, but basing your hopes for BG on the inclusion of
              a guy who did some "co-writing" and producing on the other
              shows makes no sense; the entire ST franchise is under the
              thumb of the domineering and autocratic Rick Berman.  BG
              will be the first time we get to see Moore with full creative
              license.  Let's see how badly he mangles the pilot and _then_
              pillory him.
              \_  Well, I can't think of anyone in the industry that I
                  despise like i despise Rick Berman, so I am willing to
                  put all the blame on him.  My fingers are now crossed.
                  \_ Right on.  Now, when it turns out to be a steaming
                     pile, I'll be glad to commiserate with you right here.
              \_ You liked children of dune?
                 \_ It was flawed, but yes, I liked it.
           \_ Troll/flamefest Below:
           \_ Anyone who uses the phrase "sucked ass" in a serious way
              can't be worth listening to.  I knew you were an idiot when
              you said Starbuck should be female but didn't truly understand
              until you were sucking ass.
              \_ Wow.  You managed to derail anything remotely like conversation
                 about the topic.  You get the troller-of-the-week cookie!
                 \_ I bow before the other motd masters of destruction.  I am
                    but a butterfly before their hammer.
              \_ Starbuck acted like a female anyway, might as well make him
                 one and give me something to look at.
                 \_ bite me, I didn't.
                    \_ yes, you did. But apparently, you're too clueless
                       to notice that a file has changed since you opened
                       it in your editor.
                       \_ because I used 'diff' incorrectly?  bite me.
              \_ Wow.  You're astoundingly closed minded.  A swear word mixed
                 in with a sentence does not invalidate the thoughts or
                 intellect of the poster.  It might not necessarily demonstrate
                 good socialization or courtesy, but it has absolutely nothing
                 to do with intelligence.  Let me put it this way: Go away you
                 sanctimonious twit.  Have a nice day.
                 \_ Dear Moron, perhaps you failed basic reading comprehension,
                    or maybe you were simply born with a low IQ or other mental
                    defect so I shall explain to you v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y.  The
                    op made 2 statements.  I responded to both.  I made it
                    clear that the "swear word" was not my primary concern but
                    was merely an indication of ordinary idiocy.  I presented
                    my reason for the belief in the next sentence.  In the
                    future I shall w-r-i-t-e m-u-c-h s-l-o-w-e-r for you.
                    Please die and have a nice day.
                    \_ cf, 'sanctimonius twit' etc.  Have a nice day.
                    \_ Apparently your definition of idiocy is different
                       from mine.   You're a christian republican sysadmin,
                       aren't you?
                       \_ You forgot "white, fat, racist, rich, old, uncool,
                          greasy, stupid, uneducated, jewish, southern hick"
                          in your ad hominen.
                       \_ Hey, stop insulting us christian republican
                          sysadmins (white, fat, or otherwise).
                          \_ Why not?  They are the most easily baited, and
                             they make up most of the motd population.
                             \_ left out again...  --black muslim green poet
2003/11/25-26 [Consumer/Audio] UID:11215 Activity:nil
11/24   I'm thinking of buying a HD based MP3 player.  And I'm considering
        iRiver iHP-120, iPod, and Rio Karma, in that order, so far.  Just
        want to know what people use and think.
        \_ I've used them all and iPod is the most well rounded players of
           all in terms of reliability, support, weight, and ease of use.
           iPods do cost more, but you really get what you pay for.
           \_ is it possible to elaborate at all? ie, specify a few key
              features where iPod is better? your post is helpful but
              still sounds like an Apple commercial.
                                          -!op, also considering purchase
              \_ there was a cnet article recently re: 5 bad things
                 about the ipod. you might want to search for it. what i
                 remember is something about if 6 hrs battery life isn't
                 enough, and the battery not being replaceable.
                 \_ I've found the iPod works well for me, though I do wihs
                    it had an FM tuner. It has a nice UI, works very well with
                    my mac, has a fast transfer time, and is reasonably small.
                    (I also use it to store phone numbers/addresses) Not an
                    apple commercial, I just like it, and it saved my ass
                    by being easy backup when my hard drive crashed. There is
                    also an official apple battery replacement program now,
                    though I'm not sure how long the batteries are supposed
                    to last. -chialea
                    \_ Too bad it has issues playing back variable bit rate
                       mp3s.  Specifically the r3mix'd kind.
                       \_ really? I've been playing r3mixed and alt-preset
                          standard vbr mp3's on it for almost a year with
                          no problems at all.  what are these issues you're
                          talking about?
                        \_ I've got a 5 gb original iPod and the battery
                           hasn't had any problems. Most of the people
                           I know with iPods haven't had any problems
                           either. These people sound like a bunch of
           \_ Actually, the iRiver costs more than the rest, I think.  BTW,
              do iPods do crossfading?  That's one reason I'm not jumping on
              the iRiver, and considering Karma.  -op
        \_ You may want to consider one of the Creative Nomad Jukebox
           players. I have a Nomad Zen 60 GB and I'm happy with it.
        \_ you're all just a bunch of music stealing pirates.  god will
           punish you all with non stop britney on a short loop with her
           lesbo mother/daughter kiss burned into your retinas.
           \_ i was stealing music long before digital music.
           \_ I get really turned on by mother/daughter lesbian porn.  Actually
              watching Gilmore Girls that's all I think about!
                \_ sounds like incest, not lesbian
                   \_ who says you can't have both at the same time?
                      \_ California Penal Code Section 285.
                         \_ i film my privately, not for pay.
                            \_ Read the Code:  Any incest is illegal.
              \_ ew!  now I'll never enjoy m/d porn again!
2003/11/25 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:11216 Activity:nil
11/24   What's the diff b/w 4WD and AWD?
        \_ usually if they say 4WD the vehicle is normally in 2WD with the
           ability to switch to 4WD.. but on normal city streets will not
           handle well in 4WD (often because it locks 1/both/all
           differentials). AWD usually implies it will automatically shift
           power to or away from wheels w/o any intervention. There are of
           course variations on these rules.. such as the mercedes 4matic
           \_ Yes, 4WD with locking differential(s) handles even worse than 2WD
              on paved roads unless you're always going straight.  It's not
              intended to be used on-road.  The only time the 4WD on my
              Cherokee saved my ass on city street was one time when I
              unknowingly landed one rear wheel on a cable car track on an
              uphill slope while waiting to make a left turn on a rainy day.
              As the opposite traffic cleared, I stepped on the gas but my
              truck didn't move an inch.  Realizing that I was going to be hit
              by the oncoming cable car going downhill fast in the opposite
              direction, I paniced, pulled the 4WD lever, floored the gas pedal
              and pulled myself out of the intersection.
           \_ great link, thanks!  So I'm curious, how much of a mpg
              penalty is there for the awd differential?
              \_ Usually 2-4 MPG highway.  Don't remember about city.  Just
                 check out this year's specs for various vehicle models with
                 both AWD and 2WD.  E.g. Toyota Sienna (van), Lexus RX300
                 (SUV), Toyota Matrix (car).
              \_ negligable on some, e.g. audi.  definitely less than
                 other factors like tire width, tire pressure, mass of
                 lead foot.
2003/11/25 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:11217 Activity:nil
11/24   Alternatives to MS IE.  Anybody know what's the skinny on Netscape
        7.1? free, quality?  Anything about it better than Mozilla?
        \_ No.  If you're going to use NS7 you're better off with M1.x which
           is the same code base but actually gets worked on.
        \_ Firebird firebird firebird.
           \_ Yeah, I know. That's the one I'm recommending, but I'm
              trying to understand what is Netscape these days.
              is it downstream from Mozilla, or is it independent?
              \_ yes.  NS will always be behind Moz, because it starts from the
                 Moz codebase.
              \_ There's really nothing to recommend it.  It's Mozilla with
                 AOL ads.
              \_ it has an integrated aim client and its mail client can
                 read netscape webmail. however, the netscape browser
                 division is no more, so that's probably the last netscape
                 you'll see. so i'd go with mozilla. maybe firebird, if it's
                 good enough for you.
        \_ Safari. I'm told konqueror is pretty good too. Of course
           real men just need telnet to surf the web.
           \_ real men code in assembly too.
2003/11/25 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:11218 Activity:nil
11/24   Great, while we are invading other nations for weapon of mass
        destruction, we've just approved a defense bill that includes
        research on new (smaller) nukes so we can blast anyone we want.
        \_ Not that I support more nuclear arms research, but I'd hazard
           a guess that most of the motd camp thinks this is just fine and
           dandy.  Its the "Do what I say, not what I do" foreign policy.
             \_ Well considering we don't starve 90% of our population to
                death and are not ushering in the new caliphate by
                blowing up all non-believers... Of course, we can't
                expect the same criticism of Russia's development of
                the Topol-M or the continued testing by France in the
                South Pacific, because, as we all know the US is to
                blame for everything.
                \_ Nice strawman.  French nuclear testing has been
                   vigorously protested and criticized by a broad
                   spectrum of organizations.
                   \_ Not on the motd because as always any counter point to
                      the Blame/Hate America First camp is always a strawman
                      or a bad source or dismissed in some other way that
                      shuts down all discussion since there's no other counter.
                      \_ There's actually plenty of counters, its just that
                         motd liberals have better things to do than to
                         participate in endless circular arguments with
                         right wing motd cranks.  Like, getting out and
                         seeing the sun and spending time with their
                         friends, and stuff.
2003/11/25 [Uncategorized] UID:11220 Activity:nil
11/24   [ subaru thread nuked.  Selective deletions aren't nice. ]
2003/11/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:11221 Activity:low
11/25   "Considering how miserable weddings seem to make straight people
        -- the work, the expense, the seemingly inevitable conflicts with
        your parents, the 50 percent chance of a divorce -- shouldn't people
        who don't like gay people want us to get married, just to make us
        miserable?" -- Dan Savage
        \_ I agree with 3,000 years of recorded history.  Marriage is an
           institution between a man and a woman ... and our constitution
           and laws should reflect that. -Massachusetts gov
           \_ I agree with thousands of years of recorded history. Slavery
              is an institution between a master and a servant.. and our
              constitution reflects that. Let's bring it back.
              \_ talk about missing the point.
                 \_ No point to be missed, just some bigotry to be pointed
                    \_ No, the point was "-Massachusetts gov".  Care to
                       try again?
                       \_ The governor of Massachusetts is a Mormon.
                          No surprises here.
                    \_ Yeah, I see clearly in our Constitution where it
                       says slavery. America - love it or leave it.
                       \_ Taxation and Representation - Article 1 Section 2:
                          "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be
                           apportioned among the several States which may be
                           included within this Union, according to their
                           respective Numbers, which shall be determined by
                           adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including
                           those bound to Service for a Term of years, and
                           excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all
                           other Persons."
                           \_ superceded , 14th amendment section 2.
                              \_ Which was exactly my point.  Sometimes,
                                 you have to make changes.
                          Slave Trade - Article 1 Section 9:
                          "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any
                           of the States now existing shall think proper to
                           admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior
                           to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight,
                           but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation,
                           not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."
                          Fugitive Slaves - Article 4 Section 2::
                          "No Person held to Service or Labour in one State,
                           under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall,
                           in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein,
                           be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall
                           be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such
                           Service or Labour may be due."
                           America - love it or fix it.
                           \_ what's so broken about not allowing queers to
                              marry?  we don't allow lots of people who
                              engage in anti-social behavior to do a lot of
                              things for a lot of reasons.
                              \_ Okay, I'll bite.  What's anti-social about
                                 fucking?  Seems pretty damn social to me.
           \_ Garriage!
              \_ ill bite, what's garriage mean?
                 \_ I believe its a concatenation of "gay" and "marriage."
                    -- !op
                    \_ ah... thanks.  garriage... please tell me, is it
                       supposed to be insulting or a positive word/phrase?
                       \_ I have no idea.  I don't think its either.  I think
                          its just meant to be stupid/funny, like the rest of
                          the motd.  Whether it suceeds at that is a matter
                          of opinion.  I thought it was really funny the
                          first time I saw, but I'm sure like ED! and
                          RIDE BIKE! and now IFILE!, it will just become
                          \_ Actually, I was going for meme status... I'd like
                             to promote it as an alternative to the term "civil
                             union", which is the blinkingly obvious solution to
                             this whole debate.  Marriage == religious sacrament.
                             Civil Union: Government's version of two people
                             declaring their love of shared tax forms.
                             \_ Nice plan, but the fundies will never go for it.
                                Anything that acknoledges that there might be
                                an acceptable, workable lifestyle that includes
                                something other than missionary position
                                vaginal sex between a married heterosexual
                                couple for the purpose of reproduction is
                                verboten.  BTW, Dean supports something exactly
                                like what you are suggesting, but of course
                                the media will just spin it as "gay marriage"
                                because it will get better ratings that way.
                                \_ DEAN!
2003/11/25-26 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:11222 Activity:high
11/24   Don't overlook a condominium as an affordable first investment. Unlike
        years past, when condos were considered a lousy investment by
        comparison with detached homes, condos are now appreciating at twice
        the rate of single-family residences.
        \_ Not a condo, but the whole condominium is a good investment.
           A single condo still sux balz!
        \_ Sure, but that will stop when they approach the cost of a SFR,
           which will always cost more - and the SFR will hold its value
           better, too.
        \_ Another factor I have heard is that the boomers are starting
           to reach retirement age, and their kids are leaving home, and
           because of that, many will be downgrading from house to
           townhome or apartment.
           \_ This was supposed to happen with WWII-era seniors when the
              boomers left home. It didn't quite work out that way as the
              boomers moved south and west and built more suburbs. The big
              change is the increase of single adults (with and without kids)
              with homes and immigrants.
              \_ OTOH, watch prices on 2-storey units drop as Boomers like my
                 Mom and Dad realize they won't be able to make it up the
                 stairs much longer.
        \_ Supply and demand affects condo prices more than homes
           because it is easier to increase the supply in a given
           neighborhood. If there are lots of condo developments
           and/or free land nearby, be wary. In as city like SF, you
           are prob safer from this kind of thing happening.
        \_ hehehe another bitter renter trying to delude himself into
           thinking the home he can't afford is a bad ivnestment.
           \_ Considering the fervent responses on the motd everytime
              someone questions housing prices, looks more like a
              bunch of heavily mortgaged home owners worried about
              the prices of their houses.  Makes good troll bait.
                        - happy owner of big house not in BA.
              \_ Not at all.  I was in the bitter renter hoping for a housing
                 crunch mode until I finally got a clue and just bought
                 something.  I'm up over $150 in 4 years, thanks and not
                 even close to heavily mortgaged.  I'll own it 100% in
                 ~7.5 years.
                 \_ Down with the Kapitalist bourgeiosie!
                 \_ What makes you think the next 4 years is going to
                    be like the last 4 years?  The housing price
                    increase rate during the bubble and interest rate
                    cutting years is not sustainable.  Home price
                    increase first half of this year - San Jose -1%,
                    Oakland 1%, SF 1%.  That doesn't sound like good
                    enough reason to rush out to buy a house at all
                    cost.  Interest rate can't go any lower.  Latest
                    news is housing sales went down.  Economy is still
                    uncertain.  Besides, the Op may just be considering
                    uncertain.  Besides, the op may just be considering
                    to buy a house.  Just because you have no clue for
                    a long time, and then made a "smart" move doesn't
                    mean you
                    whether it's worth it to buy a condo, or save more
                    to buy a house.  You said you had no clue for some
                    time before making a "smart" move to buy a house.
                    Perhaps you should consider the possibility that
                    you may be quite clueless about what will happen in
                    the next four years instead of jumping to conclusions
                    that anyone less than 100% bullish abouthousing
                    prices is a "bitter renter".
2003/11/25-26 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:11223 Activity:nil
11/25   When I do "ssh machine command" it keeps asking me for password.
        The weird thing is that it only happens on certain machines. Why
        is that and how do I make it so it never prompts for a password? Thx
        \_ create private keys
        \_ man ssh-keygen, man ssh-agent
           \_ Also man ssh, search for shosts.
              \_ shost-like authentication is not enabled by default in newer
                 implementations of OpenSSH. Just use the key authentication.
2003/11/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:11224 Activity:kinda low
11/25   Farmer's house to be destroyed in a matter of hours.
        Just remember you never really own property in this country.
        If the government wants it, too bad.
        \_ what does it mean in the comments section when freepers say
           "bump?"  Is that like "Heil Bush?"
           \_ if it means the same thing as on various other boards, then
              it means to bump the thread back up to the top in the thread
              index. it works because posts that show activity get moved up.
        \_ Bzzt. As with so many freeper links, this does not contain enough
           info to make an informed judgement.  Does this building constitute
           an asbestos hazard?  Is this a living unit?  What were Farmer
           Avery's responses to the letters sent by the Supervisor?  Does the
           county intend to claim the land under eminent domain?  Give us
           more info and less sloganeering.  --erikred
        \_ Read the constitution. it's called immenient domain.
                                              \_ eminent
           \_ Not only do you not know how to spell, you don't know your
              Constitution.  The Fifth Amendment ends, "nor shall private
              property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
              That's a right for the people, not the government.  In this
              case, the property is not being taken, it is not being used
              for the public, and the property that is being destroyed is
              not being compensated for.  The government contends this guy's
              home was being used improperly and is destroying it.  Unless
              due process didn't occur, this is Constitutionally okay.  Sucks
              for him, but sometimes due process doesn't get nice results.
              Further, saying "you never really own property in this country"
              is fallacious.  It's like saying "you never really own your own
              body" because there are limits on abortion and the death penalty
              exists.  Or because you can be jailed.  In this country,
              property rights are far greater than in most.
        \_ I think it is funny that the same yahoos that celebrate when
           Iraqi or Palastinian homes are demolished get all up in arms
           when it happens to one of them.
           \_ Yeah, because inhabiting your own property because you're
              tired is just as bad a crime as killing innocents for political
           \_ I didn't see in the article where Farmer Bob blew anyone up,
              shot down any planes, set off any bombs, or sent his brainwashed
              children off to a pizza parlor to kill himself and some kids.
              \_ Neither did most of those people in Palestine either. They
                 just happened to live in the same village.
        \_ It's a communist plot from America-hating democrats!
           \_ Fascist, actually.
2003/11/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:11225 Activity:kinda low
11/25   First Arnold campaign promise broken:
        Aug. 20:
        "SCHWARZENEGGER: Now, does this mean we're going to make cuts? Yes.
        Does this mean education is on the table? No."
        "Education would absorb $160 million in cuts this year and next under
        the proposal Schwarzenegger presented to legislative leaders Monday."
        \_ RECALL!
        \_ Remember, Sully, when I promised to kill you last?  ... I lied.
        \_ I feel so betrayed! In the movies he wouldn't let us down!
           \_ What about in Batman?
        \_ Y'all should've voted for Tom.
           \_ Do away with that pesky public education altogether.
           \_ Don't blame me.  I voted for Kodos.
           \_ No.  Mary Carey.
2003/11/25-26 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:11226 Activity:moderate
11/25   Anyone used the Sony Ericsson T616 phone yet?  I'm really tired of
        the Motorola-style flip phones...
        \_ While I don't really like motorola's phones, I do find flip phones
        \_ While I don't really like motorola's phones, i do find flip phones
           more comfortable to talk on, and find they give better audio quality
           more comfortable to talk on, and find they give better audio quality
        \_ The T616 suffers from horrible reception, at least much worse than
           old v60i. Fun to play with, though, if you have a strong signal.
           [format only because you had content]
        \_ I have a T616 and I like it more and more.  However, I don't use
           any of the fancy features at the moment -- camera, GPRS, ringtones,
           Java, bluetooth -- and in that respect it has exactly the same
           utility to me as all my past, less-featurefull, Ericsson phones. --tobin
           Some notes:
               - The phone is tiny!  fits in a shirt pocket, yet is comfortable
                 to use.  This is perhaps one of the greatest selling points.
                 Most competing phones are incredibly bulky by comparison.
               - The T616 will not work in Europe.  The T610 does.
               - The display is a bit difficult to read in direct sunlight.
               - AT&T wireless coverage has been excellent everywhere I've been
                 *except* in Berkeley, where coverage in buildings is basically
                 non-existant.  However, there is an antenna on Etcheverry hall,
                 so outdoor coverage on the campus is good.  Along interstates
                 it's almost always full bars.  Note however that TDMA coverage
                 (AT&T "Digital" as opposed to GSM) is vastly more widespread,
                 but is not supported by Ericsson phones (they typically cater
                 to the GSM market) but is [hopefully] going away, in favor of
               - Voice quality has been excellent everywhere where service has
                 been available.  It seems to be an all-or-nothing thing.
               - The menus are deeper than need be.  It can take a lot of button
                 pushes to accomplish something.
               - It can run Java programs that you download! I haven't tried this
                 yet, but it sounds like it could make the phone the best thing since
                 the TI-85.
                 \_ Is this just a troll to piss off HP calculator people
                    or are you really dumb enough to like the TI-85?
                    There's a name for calculators that don't use rpn:
                    "communist turd counters."
               - A headset thingee is included, and works well.
               - The built-in web browser is highly standards compliant (someone
                 I met from Opera ran all sorts of browser tests on my phone and
                 apparently the browser surpasses IE most of the time).  However,
                 the whole web-browser-on-a-phone doesn't seem to have $8/month
                 worth of utility to me.
           for the person on the other end because them mic is closer to you
           for the person on the other end because the mic is closer to your
2003/11/25-26 [Health, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:11227 Activity:moderate
11/25   Cato Institute:
        "Cato's director of health and welfare studies said, "Today's
        passage of the Medicare prescription drug bill represents a return
        to 1960's Great Society-style big government. Congress has failed in
        its responsibility to reform Medicare, choosing instead to simply
        throw money at the problem. It is our children and grandchildren who
        will bear the cost of this massive new entitlement program."
        \_ More importantly, they chose to throw money at the money-grubbing
           HMOs, which lobbied very hard for this one.
           \_ It's also a big chunk-o-welfare to drug companies, as the
              government will be paying the full asking price for drugs.
              Not only will more people be taking patented drugs, but those
              who move from HMO coverage will bring more money to BigPharm, as
              the HMOs can negotiate prices, but the gov't cannot.
        \_ I told you before: republican bill bad, democrat bill good.
           \_ Yes, you told us before, but you're just an obvious troll and
              you're not saying anything of substance.
              \_ It's not a troll if it's true.  And who on is here saying
                 anything of substance?  The typical response is, "you're
                 wrong and I hate you because you don't believe what I do
                 and I won't respond further because I don't like your
                 sources because I don't like their editors".  You're so
                 damned self blind and clueless.
2003/11/25 [Reference/Celebration, Recreation/Food] UID:29668 Activity:nil
11/24   Why the turkey tastes bad:
2003/11/25 [Science/Space] UID:29669 Activity:nil
11/24   Methinks this guy has watched Independence Day one too many times:
2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:November:25 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>