Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:21 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2003/10/21 [Recreation/Dating] UID:10708 Activity:nil
10/20   Duh: Single men outnumber single women in Silicon Valley:
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/10/20/state2135EDT0153.DTL
        \_ Statistics by age, please.  I'm not going to date any widow-
           grandmothers.  These AP writers need to train harder.
        \_ AP writers have this weird anonymity about their articles and
           get reprinted in almost every damn paper.
           \_ They're the new Urban Mythology.
2003/10/21 [Reference/Religion] UID:10709 Activity:high
10/20   To the "athiest" who wants an honest response from a Christian
        regarding religion and faith:
        Are you an athiest?  or are you searching?  I believe that
        determining whether there is a Creator can be done through reason.
        Now to determine God's nature, or whether Jesus Christ is God
        requires some faith.  For those who are searching, good for you.
        Even though I am a Christian, go ahead and do look at the other
        religions.  See what makes them tick, and try to understand each.
        Of course, since I have faith that Jesus Christ is God, I would
        like to introduce you to the Faith.  You may accept it.  You may
        reject it.  It is up to you what to do with that information.
        I do hope that you do look at Christianity with an open mind,
        even if you do look at other Religions.  We can discuss by
        email if you wish.
        \_ I'm glad  you have faith in that assertion, because there's
           no other way to establish it!
        Now to determine God's nature, or whether Jesus Christ is God
        requires some faith.  For those who are searching, good for you.
        Even though I am a Christian, go ahead and do look at the other
        religions.  See what makes them tick, and try to understand each.
        Of course, since I have faith that Jesus Christ is God, I would
        like to introduce you to the Faith.  You may accept it.  You may
        reject it.  It is up to you what to do with that information.
        I do hope that you do look at Christianity with an open mind,
        even if you do look at other Religions.  We can discuss by
        email if you wish.
        \_ Unfortunately, Christianity and imperalism are inseperable.
           Even today, I can see elements of White Man's Burden when I
           look at these missionaries and their mindsets, even though
           Christanity's orgin has nothing to do with caucasian nor
           race.  Instead of focusing on things like creation of Universe,
           try to look at the not-so-gorious aspect of history, i.e.
           time between fall of Roman Empire and 1500 A.D.  Until you
           understand why people hate Christians, don't try to convince
           them to join your camp.
           \_ are you the same person discussing way down below or
              a different person?
              \_ It's not me, that's for sure. -- agnostic (weak atheist)
                 \_ I encourage you to keep on searching among
                    the different religions.  I do hope you get
                    a good representative to represent Christianity.
                    There are many different "Christian" categories too
                    such as Catholicism and different Protestant sects.
                    And even among them, more liberal, or conservative
                    members.
                        \_ and, of course, they're each the One True Way.
           \_ Christians do look at the creation of the Universe.  Very
              definitely.  It shows God the Creator.  Jews believe that
              the Messiah is still coming.  As for Christians, they
              believe the entire time is part of God's salvation history.
              Jesus Christ is but one part of the entire truth, IMHO.
           \_ That's kinda a moot point, unless you're talking about
              Catholics.  Most Christian religions believe that was
              a time of apostacy, when the church was corrupt and the
              truth could not be taught.
              \_ I agree. as an athiest, i view protestant religions as
                 evil idiocy and catholicism as an evil cult.  that's
                 an important difference.
               \_ are you trying to create some devisiveness between
                  Catholics and Protestants?
                  \_ Best. Oblivious-to-the-obvious. Troll. EVER.
           \_ So how do you explain pre-Christian Roman imperialism,
              or Chinese imperialism, etc. ?
              \_ The statement "Xianity and imperialism are inseparable"
                 would be better phrased "Xianity implies imperialism."
                 The proof that the inverse is not necessarily true is
                 left to the reader.
                 \_ What you have, is at best, a weak correlation.
                    Early Christianity flourished under Rome's prosecution
                    Christianity in Korea flourished under Japan's (Shinto)
                    rule.  Pressures from British missionaries and churches
                    were key to ending the opium trade in China (against
                    British business interest).  Pre-Islamic expansion
                    Christianity in Africa has nothing to do with
                    imperialism.  Imperialism deeply affected Asia, Africa
                    and the Americas, but thhe only place were I see a
                    significant corelation is the Americas, and the
                    Filipines.
                    \_ ObTroll:  Rome and Japan were merely fighting the
                       imperialistic infection of Xianity in their
                       respective spheres of influence.  That Xianity
                       was viral and grassroots in these cases changes
                       nothing about the imperialistic dreams of its
                       proponents-- they were simply far-sighted in their
                       ambitions to bring about the Kingdom of God.
                       \_ You actually think that the motive of the Dutch
                          and British East India Companies is to bring about
                          the Kingdom of God?  Ha, what a joke.
                       \_ You actually believe that Japan killed tens of
                          millions of Chinese, Koreans, etc. to preempt
                          Christianity?
        \_ Ah, but am I permitted to reject your god? Christian sects are
           rooted in evangelizing. It is not enough that they are Christians,
           everyone must be. They must be converted to the Christian god.
           Some people really find that irritating.
           \_ Yes, you can reject God. But duh, of course we're going to
              share our relationship with God. It's not relativism.
              It's what we think is true.
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/SW/Languages/Web] UID:10710 Activity:nil
10/20   When did the dailycal switch to using PHP? Articles actually load now.
        \_ dailycal started working after they stopped using http://autobahn.org,
           a cheapo ISP managed by lame ass people and admined by a mediocre
           sysadmin who has a bloated ego.
        \_ WTF are you talking about? That shit doesn't load at all. I need
           my SoT fix!
2003/10/21-27 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:10711 Activity:nil
10/20   Looking for Sr. Unix sysadmin with strong Solaris, Veritas
        NetBackup, Volume Manager/VCS skills. Experience with HDS and
        Brocade a plus.  Location just south of SF. E-mail me -- Marco
2003/10/21-27 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/OtherSchools] UID:10712 Activity:nil
10/20   UCB IS&T is hiring! /csua/pub/jobs/UCB-IST (Originally posted to
        BayLISA jobs mailing list.)
        \_ will I have to deal with tom holub?
           \_ if you don't want to deal with me, you'll fit right in.  -tom
              \_ Nice.
              \_ I thought UC only hired people with college degrees?
                 \_ Get some new material, already.
                    \_ That material is still working nicely.  I want to know
                       how someone without a degree can feel so superior to all
                       those around him who have accomplished something which
                       he failed to accomplish and never will.  Is it just
                       false bravado to soothe his damaged ego or does he
                       really truly feel superior and if so, what is the basis
                       for those feelings?  The ant walks among giants.
                \_ did tom fart really hard in E260 12 years
                   ago next to you and you've never forgotten? get a
                   life.
                        \_ College degree is just a piece of paper.  s.jobs
2003/10/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics] UID:10713 Activity:nil 75%like:10700
10/21   Danh is in the news again!
        http://csua.org/u/4r0
        \_ That you, aspo?
2003/10/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:10714 Activity:nil
10/21   <snore>
2003/10/21-22 [Recreation/Dating, Recreation/Travel] UID:10715 Activity:insanely high
10/21   What's a good weekend vacation for me and my wife for <$350 in driving
        distance of the East Bay? I'm looking for specific hotel/resort
        recommendations, e.g. Orr Hot Springs.
         -- ulysses
        \_ Napa
        \_ Cross Country skiing at Royal Gorge
        \_ why do people get married so young? didn't you just graduate?
           \_ Are you thinking of somebody else maybe? I'm probably older than
              you. -- ulysses
                \_ I'm 50. How old are YOU?
                   \_ Pull trou, troll.
        \_ Again, have you been canyoning up in Quincy?  It may be cold
        \_ Cross Country skiing at Royal Gorge
              you. -- ulysses
           right now, but it's beautiful and nearly free.
           \_ Not in many years. Thank you for the suggestion. It will have to
              wait for summer, I think, though. My wife is not exactly the
              outdoorsy sort. <Wife says: What do you mean no room service?!>
              \_ BDG, where are you!?
        \_ umm... what about the obvious?  up in Napa County... Calistoga
           Hot Springs...  or any of the resort/spas up there.  You can also
           go shopping a bit south of there.  Specific recommendations?
           Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa(not in Calistoga) is very close to the
           limit of your budget. You could go for Sat night, and buy a nice
           spa package or two, spend a day wine tasting, etc.  Or the
           Calistoga places can be a bit cheaper than SMI.
           \_ Lavender Hill in Calistoga is excellent and not too pricey....
       \_ Bed and breakfast places up the coast on highway 1 in medicino
          are all also really nice and within your range --sky
          \_ I know there are good ones but I've had mixed experiences with
             B&Bs. Can you name one you'd recommend?
             \_ Sorry I can't remember the names of the ones I stayed at.
                I usually just drive around and pick one.  Another suggestion,
                 closer to home, is Casa Madrona over in Sausalito.
                Its a totally painless weekend getaway.
                See http://casamadrona.rockresorts.com
                --sky
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/Networking] UID:10716 Activity:low
10/21   If I can't get cable modem service (cuz COMCAST doesn't offer it) and I
        am outta range for DSL, am I pretty much SOL?
        \_ long range 802.11b?
        \_ On a related note, is there any OS that supports multiple modems
           and phone lines connected to the same machine such that it can get
           higher throughput via dialup?
           \_ windows
              \_ Really?  Which version?  Thx.
                 \_ http://www.1usa.com/tech/dual-modem
           \_ yes
        \_ Fixed wireless...the problem is, it isn't cheap...they are
           geared towards enterprise users.
        \_ DirectTV?
        \_ be careful, most things don't seem to work w/ cable modem.
           \_ CSS works with cable modem.
           \_ FUD.  please list these "things" that don't work.
2003/10/21-22 [Reference/Religion] UID:10717 Activity:nil
10/21   Mohammed Rosenberg was here.
2003/10/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:10718 Activity:kinda low
10/21   Stock market performed better under Democratic presidencies.
        http://polls.yahoo.com/public/archives/57019568/p-quote-273
        (Yahoo! Finance)
        I thought Republicans are the pro-business ones.
        \_ the difference is statistically small. On the opposite end you
           could argue that Democratic Presidents start more wars than
           Republican Presidents by a proportion of five to one.
        \_ "pro-business" is different from "pro-market". Compare corporate
           welfare and coddling protectionism (handouts) to the kind of
           regs that enhance competition (regulation) like the wireless
           number portability rule that will soon make cell phone companies
           actually compete with each other. "Pro-market" is good for
           consumers because it enhances competition. "Pro-business" is
           usually just big corporate donors getting cushy perks, bought
           and paid for. --aaron
        \_ I've heard this theory that the more gov't leaves business alone
           the better business does.  Maybe the dems, by not changing much
           to do with business, didn't fuck them up?
        \_ don't think Republicans are "pro-business" as much as they are
           pro-corporate executive profits. ... if you look at it this way,
           clearly this attitude will adversely affect business (enron, etc)
           \_ Ah, got it.
           \_ What? No snide comments from the self proclaimed "real"
              conservatives?  Here's a thought: a good economy makes life
              easier for most people, but a bad economy with big tax cuts
              for the very wealthy is only good for the very wealthy.
              Republicans don't give a shit about small to medium size
              businesses, an assertion proven by the current republicans
              in the white house and in congress.
              \_ Well, I was going to comment, but you seem to be carrying
                 a nice conversation with yourself, so I ll leave you to it.
                   -- real conservative
        \_ Gov't is statist on both sides - who he pays receives.  So do you
           want bigger government (more of the same) or less? But the
           first sentence 'A 2003 paper looked seriously at the 18...',
           and the last 'Other writers have confirmed a performance
           difference in favor of Democratic administrations,
           though one that was too small to be statistically significant.'
           suggest 1) the sample size is too small 2) the article / paper
           are overreaching.
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:10719 Activity:nil
10/20   How do I export some of my folders out from Yahoo mail?
        \_ I am sure there are easier ways, but this is what I've done.
           I choose mozilla thunderbird as pop3/Imap client mainly because
           it store things in the RFC inbox format.  Then, you go to
           sourceforge and download this thing called "postman."  It's a
           proxy server that sits between your yahoo mail and your pop3
           client, thus, it can retrieve email from hotmail and yahoo
           account.  It workes like wonder, except the performance issue,
           which I can live with it.
        \_ you might also try http://yahoopops.sourceforge.net
2003/10/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups, ERROR, uid:10720, category id '18005#6.75' has no name! , ] UID:10720 Activity:very high
10/21   http://www.sfgate.com
        79% of people polled said having a Caucasian Club is okay.
        This surprises me, especially from SF.
        \_ as long as anyone can join, then the 42n ch1x can find their
           white boyfriends!  chinese people can find asian ch1x at any
        \_ as long as anyone can join, then the 42n ch1nx can find their
           white boyfriends!  chinese people can find asian ch1nx at any
           42n club right?
           \_ Do whites on average really have bigger dicks than Asians?  It
              seems so based on all the porn I saw.
              \_ who said it has anything to do with dick size?  people are
                 conditioned to see Prince Charming as white.
                 \_ maybe the asian guys available are just assholes?
        \_ I think that SF recently dropped from being a caucasion
           majority.
        \_ So 79% of people approve of the KKK? Interesting.
           \_ yes, this surprises me.  I thought SF is liberal.
              \_ so, white == kkk?  no cookie.
           \_ It sucks that whites are the only race that can't show pride of
              their race.
                \_ Actually, I don't think anyone should be able to "show
                   pride of their race".  The world doesn't need another
                   source of divisiveness.
                   \_ No the world doesn't need it, but it's about the right to
                      be arrogant.  If such right exists, everyone should have
                      this right.  If it doesn't, no one has it.
                      \_ But some do have the right while some don't in the US
        \_ They've had something like this at San Marino High for a while.
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/SW] UID:10721 Activity:high
10/21   What's the best way to deal with a manager who only wants code
        monkeys?  My manager repeatedly tells us that asking questions
        is not our job, our job is to do what he asks -- prefer not to be
        a code monkey.
        \_ Which company is this? I want to avoid it.
        \_ Blame all the design flaws on him, then tell him you foresaw these
           flaws before writing the code, but you didn't ask him since you're
           not supposed to.  Of course you might then lose your job, but for
           that kind of silly manager you're likely to lose your job for no
           reason anyway.
           \_ You don't need to pass blame.  That's too hostile.  As a code
              monkey, simply shrug and ask what he'd like to do to fix it.
        \_ Get him to put that statement in writing to the team, and sign it.
           Also, look for new job. But you could try showing to your mgr's mgr.
        \_ if you can't find better job, then, try to enjoy being a code
           monkey.  You are completely free of responsibilities, and doing
           only what is told doesn't really encourage you taking the
           initiative.  So, you are welcome to be lazy, only move when
           asked.
           \_ BINGO!  WE HAVE A WINNER!
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl, Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:10722 Activity:kinda low
10/21   I'm trying to write a Perl script with a spam assassin interface
        so that it'll take out trolls. Please keep up the troll keywords
        thread below so that I can make the program as perfect as possible.
        \_ You mean an auto-motd-censor script?  I thought these were grounds
           for sorrying of account.
           \_ it damn well better be.  hey op, go fuck yourself.
              we know who you are.
           \_ no no no, no AUTO motd script. Yes, auto motd scripts can
              get you sorried (case in point dumb ass kchang). My point is
              creating something that allows me to kill threads that I
              personally deem as troll with one push of a button instead
              of having to do it manually. So short of complete automation
              I believe what I am doing has no grounds for sorried account
              \_ it just makes you a fucking asshole.
              \_ If you can do this, then why not create a motd reader
                 that simply doesn't display threads with these words in
                 them?
                 \_ because it isn't about him not seeing it, it's about an
                    infantile need to control what others read.
        \_ how about an auto script that corrects my grammar on motd post?
        \_ how about an auto script that purges your account?
        \_ do you really want to get into scripting wars over the motd?  it's
           been very calm all these years (mostly).  if you turn it into a
           script war you'll find others writing scripts to delete the stuff
           you've deemed worthy of staying.  when we're done the motd will
           be blank most of the day.  suggestion: grow up, you're not the
           smartest kid in your HS anymore.  w3 awl g0t m4d sk1llz!1
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:10723 Activity:nil 50%like:10848
10/21   is there something like usermode linux, for FreeBSD ?
        \_ Not really.  There's a userland network stack available somewhere
           (gg:phk junior kernel hacker todo).
2003/10/21-22 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:10724 Activity:high
10/21   What if you are conservative on some issues, and liberal on others.
        Do you call yourself liberal or conservative?  How do you
        make the distinction?
        \_ Then you could be authoritarian or libertarian.
           \_ authoritarian sounds too negative.  Is there a more positive
              term?  And what if even on economic issues, you have
              both liberal and conservative views?
              \_ There's a reason Authoritarian sounds negative; because it
                 IS.  Anyway, if you are a pussy who is afraid to take on
                 a negative label, why label yourself at all.  Why not just
                 be a whiney "If you label me you negate me" liberal -phuqm
              \_ It's not an absolute.  You can have some liberal and some
                 conservative views, but still be overall a conservative
                 or a liberal.  If your views are split about halfway, you
                 are a centrist.  The libertarian party has a useful (although
                 a bit simplistic) tool which is a square with each apex
                 representing liberal, conservative, libertarian or
                 authoritarian.  Most people fall somewhere between
                 those extremes.  Take this:
                 http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
                 \_ I'm pretty sure the quiz is biased and makes people
                    tend to describe themselves as libertarian.
                    \_ I took this quiz at the Top Dog at 51st and Broadway.
                       At least I got a hot dog there.  What do I get from
                       the website?
              \_ Why do you need a label?  Politics isn't a fraternity, or at
                 least it shouldn't be.
                 \_ I'm just discussing self-identification.  We are social
                    creatures.
        \_ Like Governor Arnold you call yourself "fiscally conservative
           and socially liberal" - or vice versa.
           \_ 'fiscally conservative and socially liberal' = 'libertarian'
              We have a libertarian in office!  Yay! -- libertarian
        \_ then you grow up and learn to define yourself by what you
           do and what you believe and not with soundbite friendly
           labels that mean nothing.
           \_ Look, labels are useful.  They aren't 100% accurate and they
              aren't needed once you have a better understanding of the person
              in question.  But, like most generalizations, they are useful.
              Someday you may "grow up" and realize this, but i'm by no means
              sure of that. -phuqm
              \_ based on your motd posts, i can think of several labels for
                 you, but I'm pretty sure none of them are useful.
                 asshole and moron come to mind, but that's just not
                 useful.
                 \_ Still wrong.  "asshole" is a perfectly reasonable and
                    "useful" lable.  I apply it to myself all the time.
                    For example, if you have friends that are as stupid as
                    you are and who think similarly, you could say "that phuqm
                    is an asshole, don't bother with him"  That would very
                    likely be useful to them.  (And better it would probalbly
                    serve me too).  -phuqm
2003/10/21-22 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:10725 Activity:moderate
10/21   Hi is there a small utility on unix that can replace a word in a file?
        \_ perl -p -i .bak -e 's/oldWord/newWord/' file.  If you want to replace
           all instances of oldWord with newWord, use 's/oldWord/newWord/g'
           \_ Actually, without the g it will replace the first instance
              of oldWord in each line.  The g makes it replace every
              instance of oldWord per line. -geordan
        \_ Lots. Try sed.
        \_ the oneline perl script works great with one file. Is there a way
           to have it process whole bunch files like *.*?
           \_ Um... perl -p -i .bak -e 's/oldWord/newWord/' *
                \_ uh no, got an "invalid argument" error
                   \_ here's where you copy paste the exact command you used
                      along with exact error you got, and we go from there.
2003/10/21 [Recreation/Computer] UID:29580 Activity:moderate
10/20   I'm 35 years old and I'm on friendster. I have about 80 friends on
        friendster, and I'd say 65 of those are either from HS or college
        while the other 15 are acquaintances that I met after college. Is it
        normal to not make any real friends after college?
        \_ I have made some.  It is not normal.
        \_ Let's step back a bit here.  You say you have 80 friends.  You
           'know' them and maintain contact via friendster.  Those aren't
           friends.  They're just people you know and maybe even like.  Friends
           are people who are there for you and willing to risk your
           friendship to save you from yourself and others.  Friends will
           sacrifice time and money and go out of their way for your benefit
           even when you're being a dweeb.  No one has 80 friends.  To answer
           your question now: people make just as many real friends after
           college as they do during or before.  You just have more people to
           party with from your earlier days than most.
        \_ don't be a loser!  Get out of the house!  Here, make a movie this
           weekend:  http://www.48hourfilm.com/sanfran_2003.htm
        \_ normal?  who cares what's normal?  it's normal to spend most of
           your time sitting in front of the tv, driving around,
           working in a cubicle with people you hate, and getting wasted
           with the poeple from work who you hate the least.
                \_ hey that sounds like me, except the driving around part
                   since I live only 3 miles from work
                        -happy sysadm who lives in mountain view
                   \_ So you RIDE BIKE! to work to USE LINUX! and LIGHT CANDLE?
                      Once there do you USE SHOWER?
           \_ less the driving around part, it sounds vaguely japanese salary
              person -ish.
        \_ you should question whether the friends from HS and college
           are really "close" friends, or are they just "acquaintances"?
           most of my friends from HS and college turn out not to be as
           great of friends as the ones I made after college.
           or maybe the friends you made after college are too mature for
           friendster ;)  j/k.
        \_ I keep in contact with one friend from HS and none from college,
           unless you count my gf. Most of my friends I met after college.
           \_ Do you count siblings?
              \_ They're never friends.  You're splitting the estate with
                 them.  They're just competition.
        \_ 7 HS, 3 College, 11 Post-College. I went to Cal, so I made no
           friends in college. 25 years old.
        \_ Only 80? I have 29,000+ friendster friends.
2003/10/21 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:29581 Activity:nil 80%like:10706
10/20   Any recommendations for colocation or dedicated server with debian?
        \_ I always wondered why people care what distro they're using for
           a server system.  What's the difference?  A server is a platform
           for remote applications.  It shouldn't matter what directory layout
           exists below the application layer.
           \_ heh, as if.
              \_ no, really, I mean it.  it shouldn't matter.
           \_ okay what about a dedicated server recommendation with
              Any BSD or Slackware, Suse, or Debian Linux? Thanks -op.
        \_ Check http://www.webhostingtalk.com
2003/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:29582 Activity:high
10/20   Great Libertarian party statement re: Rush Limbaugh's drug habit:
        http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=652
        \_ I'm unimpressed.  Even Pat Buchannan occasionally has a good
           point.  Libertarians are, overall, far more evil and influential
           than Buchannan and his neo nazi buddies will ever be in this
           country.  Fuck the libertarians.
           \_ err...libertarians are influential?  since when?!!
              \_ http://www.cato.org
           \_ err...libertarians are evil?  since when?!!
2003/10/21 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:29583 Activity:insanely high
10/20   Informal troll:
        1) Taiwan is a renegade of China and should be integrated into
           the great China ASAP
        2) Taiwan should be independent
        3) Taiwan should restore the old Republic and reestablish
           democracy in the mainland.
        Vote now:
        1: ..
          \_ Which of you idiots is advocating the enslavement of
             a country lucky enough to be free of a corrupt communist
             regime, which gave the world such nice things as
             Tienenmin (sp) Square?
        2: .
        3: ...
        \_ Is this poll about what I want to happen, or what I think is
           feasible without going to war, or what I think is most likely to
           happen?
        1: ..
          \_ Which of you idiots is advocating the enslavement of
             a country lucky enough to be free of a corrupt communist
             regime, which gave the world such nice things as
             Tienenmin (sp) Square?
             \_ Tian An Men = Gate of Heavenly Peace.
        2: .
        3: ...
        4: ..
        \_ to OP:  I presume you are a student from Taiwan who left
           Taiwan long time ago.  You might want to take a closer look
           at Taiwan today and see how economically dependent it is
           to the motherland.  The high political charge/emotions lead
           by President Lee no longer strike a chord to the majority of
           people, as they are now plagued by unemployments.  If you are
           looking for stragetic independence, then, I can tell you that
           it is impossible simply because Taiwan is 100 miles off the
           coast of the mainland.  If you are looking for economic
           independence, well, President Lee tried to persuate business
           communities invest in Indonisia and Cambodia instead in the past,
           and I don't know if you realize how diseasterous it was.
           If you are looking for political independence, well, Taiwan
           has never being ruled by the CCP.  What more do you want when
           you are already extracting  all the economic benefit of the
           mainland while not
           being rule by its draconian government?  The smartest thing
           Taiwan can do is simply keep it mouth shut and wait and see.
           If the mainland turned out to be ok economically and politically,
           then, what is wrong with return to the motherland?  If mainland
           imploded, then, you don't need even to do much to be independent.
                \_ When I grew up in 1980 I was taught to fight the
                   communist and take back China. I even remember the
                   anti-communist songs we sang back elementary school
                   (starting in 3rd grade). It's pretty funny now that I
                   think about it. How could tiny little Taiwan fight the
                   communists and take back its motherland? Har har. Oh well.
                                -Taiwanese who grew up there in the 80s
                   \_ Yea, but at least Taiwan outlasted communism in
                      PRC, and is instrumental in prodding PRC towards
                      greedy capitalism.  Unfortunately, Taiwan isn't
                      setting a very good example as a democracy, with
                      Lee and Chen playing divisive politics.
                   \_ It becomes a problem if there is a pro-Democracy
                      revolution in China.  But the higher ups really will
                      try their best to prevent that from happening ...
           \_ Improve English first lah.  I presume you are from PRC?
        \_ Taiwan will never become a part of China until China becomes a
           democracy.  This is very, very likely.  No one wants a shooting
           war.  It's all posturing.  What do I mean by posturing?  Look
           at all the votes for 3.  This is a game mostly about China being
           able to say it's boss -- stability is China's number one priority.
        \_ About 4:  I think it's possible, and you might see it in your
           lifetime.  Wait 20 years.
           \_ 4 sounds good to me.  I consider that a victory for
              Taiwan    - tainan taiwanese.
              \_ and a victory for the united states, south korea, japan,
                 russia, one billion chinese, and basically everyone
                 else in the world except North Korea.
                 \_ don't forget those who want TI at all cost, and
                    perhaps some US right wingers.
2003/10/21 [Reference/Religion] UID:29584 Activity:nil
10/20   To the "athiest" who wants an honest response from a Christian
        regarding religion and faith:
        Are you an athiest?  or are you searching?  I believe that
        determining whether there is a Creator can be done through reason.
        \_ I'm glad  you have faith in that assertion, because there's
           no other way to establish it!
        Now to determine God's nature, or whether Jesus Christ is God
        requires some faith.  For those who are searching, good for you.
        Even though I am a Christian, go ahead and do look at the other
        religions.  See what makes them tick, and try to understand each.
        Of course, since I have faith that Jesus Christ is God, I would
        like to introduce you to the Faith.  You may accept it.  You may
        reject it.  It is up to you what to do with that information.
        I do hope that you do look at Christianity with an open mind,
        even if you do look at other Religions.  We can discuss by
        email if you wish.
        \_ Unfortunately, Christianity and imperalism are inseperable.
           Even today, I can see elements of White Man's Burden when I
           look at these missionaries and their mindsets, even though
           Christanity's orgin has nothing to do with caucasian nor
           race.  Instead of focusing on things like creation of Universe,
           try to look at the not-so-gorious aspect of history, i.e.
           time between fall of Roman Empire and 1500 A.D.  Until you
           understand why people hate Christians, don't try to convince
           them to join your camp.
           \_ are you the same person discussing way down below or
              a different person?
              \_ It's not me, that's for sure. -- agnostic (weak atheist)
                 \_ I encourage you to keep on searching among
                    the different religions.  I do hope you get
                    a good representative to represent Christianity.
                    There are many different "Christian" categories too
                    such as Catholicism and different Protestant sects.
                    And even among them, more liberal, or conservative
                    members.
                        \_ and, of course, they're each the One True Way.
           \_ Christians do look at the creation of the Universe.  Very
              definitely.  It shows God the Creator.  Jews believe that
              the Messiah is still coming.  As for Christians, they
              believe the entire time is part of God's salvation history.
              Jesus Christ is but one part of the entire truth, IMHO.
           \_ That's kinda a moot point, unless you're talking about
              Catholics.  Most Christian religions believe that was
              a time of apostacy, when the church was corrupt and the
              truth could not be taught.
              \_ I agree. as an athiest, i view protestant religions as
                 evil idiocy and catholicism as an evil cult.  that's
                 an important difference.
               \_ are you trying to create some devisiveness between
                  Catholics and Protestants?
                  \_ Best. Oblivious-to-the-obvious. Troll. EVER.
           \_ So how do you explain pre-Christian Roman imperialism,
              or Chinese imperialism, etc. ?
              \_ The statement "Xianity and imperialism are inseparable"
                 would be better phrased "Xianity implies imperialism."
                 The proof that the inverse is not necessarily true is
                 left to the reader.
                 \_ What you have, is at best, a weak correlation.
                    Early Christianity flourished under Rome's prosecution
                    Christianity in Korea flourished under Japan's (Shinto)
                    rule.  Pressures from British missionaries and churches
                    were key to ending the opium trade in China (against
                    British business interest).  Pre-Islamic expansion
                    Christianity in Africa has nothing to do with
                    imperialism.  Imperialism deeply affected Asia, Africa
                    and the Americas, but thhe only place were I see a
                    significant corelation is the Americas, and the
                    Filipines.
                    \_ ObTroll:  Rome and Japan were merely fighting the
                       imperialistic infection of Xianity in their
                       respective spheres of influence.  That Xianity
                       was viral and grassroots in these cases changes
                       nothing about the imperialistic dreams of its
                       proponents-- they were simply far-sighted in their
                       ambitions to bring about the Kingdom of God.
                       \_ You actually think that the motive of the Dutch
                          and British East India Companies is to bring about
                          the Kingdom of God?  Ha, what a joke.
                       \_ You actually believe that Japan killed tens of
                          millions of Chinese, Koreans, etc. to preempt
                          Christianity?
                       \_ Pressures from British missionaries and churches
                          were key to ending the opium trade in China?  I
                          thought the monarch was the head of the church there.
        \_ Ah, but am I permitted to reject your god? Christian sects are
           rooted in evangelizing. It is not enough that they are Christians,
           everyone must be. They must be converted to the Christian god.
           Some people really find that irritating.
           \_ Yes, you can reject God. But duh, of course we're going to
              share our relationship with God. It's not relativism.
              It's what we think is true.
2003/10/21 [Recreation/Dating, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:29585 Activity:nil
10/21   What are key troll words? Here are a few to start us out:
        sex, marriage, israel, WMD, conservative, liberal, bike, linux,
        windows, bsd, berkeley
        \_ Iraq, Taiwan
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:21 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>