Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:14 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2003/10/14 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:10618 Activity:high
10/13   The Soviet Republic of Texas
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21839-2003Oct13.html
        \_ Well, all the partisan posturing aside, what is the right way
           to create districts?  -- ilyas
           \_ Don't let politicians do it.
              \_ yep.
              \_ This is avoiding the question.  The article implied that
                 high reelection rates are somehow bad, equating high turnover
                 with healthy democracy.  It's not clear that this is right.
                 While low turnover may be indicative of lack of
                 While low turnover may be indicated of lack of
                 democracy, like in Soviet Union, it may also be indicative
                 of voter satisfaction.  Also, assuming a particular state
                 has a definite political majority, does it not seem fair
                 to district in such a way as to reflect this?  (Not to say
                 Texas is necessarily such a state).  The writer of the
                 article clearly didn't like Texan redistricting, but failed
                 to point out a standard to which districting should adhere.
                 It's easy to be a critic.
                 \_ It depends on why there are high reelection rates.  In the
                    case of highly gerrymandered states like Ca and soon to be
                    Texas, it is because the minority party voters are being
                    disenfranchised.  Their candidates *can't* win because
                    the lines are drawn to guarantee this.
                 \_ Fair enough-- it's also easy to go along with the
                    rowdies when they kvetch and scream loudly.  Ignoring
                    the article for a moment, the correct way to create
                    districts is the way it was originally intended: by
                    population numbers, not politics.  Each state has a
                    number of Representatives based on its population;
                    create districts to reflect that and let the voters
                    decide themselves on the person they want to elect.
                    When compared with a fair and balanced plan like this,
                    DeLay's plan to redistrict along voting lines is
                    exposed as the naked power-grab that it is.
                    \_ You are pointing out features of districting that
                       any districting plan whatsoever has.  'Letting the
                       voters decide' sounds great in theory, but how do you
                       actually draw the lines?  In each geographic area, there
                       are political minorities and majorities.  How is
                       districting to be done?
                       \_ Start at the border.  Draw a modified rectangle
                          that incorporates the shape of the border. Make
                          the rectangle large enough to incorporate a
                          fraction of the population that reflects the
                          population of the state divided by the number
                          representatives allowed.  Add more rectangles
                          until you've run out of districts.  Adjust
                          rectangles to equally absorb segments of population
                          not incorporated into existing rectangles.
                          \_ What if political affiliations are geographically
                             segregated?  (Not a very farfetched assumption,
                             btw).
                             \_ As long as you pick an arbitrary (random,
                                perhaps?) corner to begin with, you'll have
                                at least taken a stab at fairness.  If the
                                end result is a corner where one party or
                                the other holds significant sway, then so
                                be it.  Vox populi, and all that.
                          \_ The problem with this is people aren't equally
                             spread throughout the state or even counties.
                             We already have county lines.  We should use
                             those.  Larger counties elect more people, while
                             the least populated elect the minimum of 1.
                             \_ First, counties are geographical, not
                                population-based, so there's no even
                                distribution whatsoever there.  Second,
                                how do you determine who gets sent from a
                                county?  By divvying up the county into
                                smaller districts?  You'll get a great
                                picture of each district, but you'll lose
                                your view of the state as a whole.
                                \_ But these are supposed to be local reps to
                                   the state level government.  I don't see
                                   anything wrong with my local rep to the
                                   state being representative of who I am and
                                   what my local concerns are.  If my local
                                   rep doesn't represent me, who does?  Why
                                   did I vote for them?  Part of the reason
                                   so few vote is the feeling of disconnect
                                   between the people we vote for and what
                                   \_ 1) Local rep is a misnomer: your local
                                      rep represents your district, not
                                      your immediate locale. 2) If your
                                      district rep doesn't represent you or
                                      fails to represent you after being
                                      elected, campaign to have him/her
                                      recalled or ejected at the next
                                      election.  If you can convince the
                                      majority of your peers, you'll be on
                                      your way.
                 It's easy to be a critic.
                                   they do afterwards.
        \_ PLEASE! Come to Cali, where re-districting the opposite way gets
           no attention. Use your head - Cali - massive gun restrictions -
           liberal bastion, Texas - exposed gun permitted - the opposite.
           \_ What the hell are you trying to say?
        \_ The problem with politicians creating districts is that over the
           years, the majority party will create districts such that the
           minority party becomes the zero party.  Texas Republicans are
           following in the footsteps of California Democrats on this one.
           Republicans make roughly 40% of CA voters but have zero state wide
           posts and a continously shrinking number of local ones.  The
           majority party in every state always uses redistricting to punish
           the minority party and provide guaranteed lockin of their own for
           future elections.  You can't allow politicians to draw the lines.
           The really sickeningly gerrymandered stuff eventually ends up in
           front of a judge but only after decades of abuse.  The mildly
           sick stuff never goes to court.
           \_ The problem with your theory is that the California Republicans
              agreed with the redistricting of CA in 2000 and supported it.
              It passed 65-8. Only 8 voted against it.
              \_ No, that only confirms it.  They needed a few votes to pass
                 and created enough majority Republican districts to keep
                 those few folks in power.  Everyone else gets screwed.  The
                 district lines should not be a political issue.  It's too
                 important to trust to the people most affected by it.
            \_ Right symptoms, wrong problem. Gerrymandering creates districts
              which can easily be labelled Republican or Democratic. So each
              representative is less likely to vote counter to his party lest
              draw the ire of the local voters, thus creating more gridlock.
               \_ I cover this in my reply above.  Yes, some in the minority
           liberal bastion, Texas - exposed gun permitted - the opposite.
                  party will vote to save their own ass.  They'll get burned
                  later.
2003/10/14 [Consumer/Camera] UID:10619 Activity:nil
10/13   http://au.news.yahoo.com/031013/19/m1ue.html speaks for itself on
        why there's still no peace and no hope of peace in the middle east.
2003/10/14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10620 Activity:nil
10/13   Cool.  Here's Europe forgetting lessons of the very recent past:
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/14/weu14.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/10/14/ixworld.html
        The best parts are near the end when they talk about arms transfers.
        \_ Which lessons are those? That China is a good trading partner?
           Amazing how antagonizing your allies makes them look for other
           partners, isn't it? The damage Bush has done to American diplomacy
           will take decades to undo.
           \_ The ones about peace with honor.  Or in this case, cash without
              honor.  But you knew that.  China is a great trading partner if
              you've got high tech weaponry to sell.  You seem angry.
              \_ Honor?
              \_ What are you trying to say? That it is dishonorable to
                 trade with the Chinese? That China is a threat to Europe's
                 security? What???
                 \_ It's there.  No.  Yes.  Just that.
2003/10/14 [Uncategorized/Multicategory] UID:10621 Activity:nil
10/13   "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors
         or enemies but as liberators..."
                General Stanley Maude, commander of the British forces,
                Baghdad, 1917
        Sound familiar?
        \_ The Brits kicked the Turkish out of Iraq, right?
           \_ How long did the Brits stay?
              \_ Until they lost the title of World Power.
                 \_ They were smart in pulling out at the right time,
                    unlike the French in Indochina and Algeria.
                    \_ Or the US in Vietnam or the USSR in Afghanistan.
           \_ The Brits were smart.  The got a mandate from the League of
              Nations.  Masters of diplomacy, in addition to military
              and economic might.
              \_ League of Nations? HAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!  They all cared even
                 less about the LoN then we do today about the UN.  There's
                 a reason it's gone and didn't last very long.  It was a
                 gentlemen's club with no gentlemen in it.
                 \_ I think you're confusing this with that Sean Connery
                    movie.
2003/10/14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10622 Activity:nil
10/13   http://www.iht.com/articles/113629.html is the first step to the
        US finally bringing our troops home and letting the EU pay for
        their own defense.
        \_ you mean redeploy our troops to other third world countries.
        \_ how fucking long ago was it that the whole fucking world
           was united behind the US in goodwill and military support
           after 9/11?  Now we have the most precarious split of NATO
           since its inception.  Great fucking foreign relations, W.
           \_ Goodwill doesn't keep your citizens safe, capture or stop
              foreign terrorists, shutdown terrorist training bases or
              really do much else for us.  Once we started trying to cash in
              that goodwill it dried up really god damned fast.  It was just
              foreign PR.  It's easy to say, "oh! the world's greatest super
              power just took a civilian hit, let's send a nice note!"  thats
              what diplomats do.
           \_ It's unclear it's W's fault.  The whole world may have been
              united behind the US, but as soon as the US started flexing a
              little muscle, various countries started noticing it wasn't in
              their best interest.  Go figure, the world is ruled by
              self-interest.  The US only had support while it did nothing,
              and it could no longer afford to do nothing.
              \_ That's right, the Iraqis had nukes headed our way!
              \_ A little diplomacy can go a long way. Look how Bush I got
                 the whole world to line up behind him for Gulf War I.
                 \_ Only in name and tokens.  It was an American action as
                    always.
              \_ Other countries backed us up when we invaded Afghanistan.
                 They objected when we invaded a country that did not support
                 al Qaeda.
                 \_ Bush and the neocons are right. Everyone else in the
                    whole wide world is crazy. Just ask them.
                 \_ We've seen links here claiming otherwise.  Unless you're
                    in the intelligence agencies assigned to an anti-terror
                    unit, you can't know either way what links there may or
                    may not have been.
                    \_ Then you're on the same page as Dick Cheney ...
                       This article argues against that:
                       http://www.hillnews.com/marshall/091703.aspx
              \_ NATO was enough for Serbia.  NATO was enough for the first
                 gulf-war.  The French and Germans, and now Britain are saying
                 NATO is not enough....  hmmm...  I wonder why ??
                 \_ Because after the Soviets fell to Ronald Reagan they're
                    no longer afraid.  We killed the big bad wolf for them
                    so it's now safe for them to march around heads held high
                    saying they don't need us anymore.  They're right for the
                    present but they'll be sorry in about 20 years and come
                    begging for help again and again we'll do it.  Not sure
                    why.  We're just stupid like that I guess.
                    \_ So true...
                    \_ uh huh.  Everyone knows the Soviets fell to Ronald
                       Reagan between the Serbian conflict and the recent
                       Iraqi war.
2003/10/14 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:10623 Activity:nil
10/13   So various no skilled and low skilled workers are striking across
        the US right now.  Should they be replaced by illegal immigrants?
        Is this not a case of Americans being unwilling to do menial work
        that immigrants would gladly do?
        \_ sounds like a normal negotiation process. And who said that
           Americans are unwilling to do menial type of work? Everything
           has its price.
        \_ Or is it the case of trying to maintain the standard of living
           so we don't have to live like they do in the 3rd world?
           \_ But they're mostly doing unskilled or very low skilled labor so
              wouldn't it be better to have undocumented immigrants do this
              labor for less since Americans aren't willing to work at the
              lower rates the new immigrants are willing to work for?  Isn't
              that the same reasoning for having undocumented workers in the
              fields picking produce instead of higher waged Americans?
           \_ You know, not every job has to, or can, provide health insurance
              and high pay. People accepting positions like these ones need to
              realize that upon accepting them.
              \_ Every job should provide health insurance. Maybe not 100% paid
                 for, but the employer should contribute. That might mean less
                 pay, though. As for high pay, do you think these people are
                 highly paid? Maybe $17/hour is a little much for a checker,
                 but: 1) What is the right amount? 2) The grocery stores agreed
                 to it. --dim
                 \_ "They agreed to do it." Ya, the alternative is to let
                    people strike. Then you look bad and the federal govt might
                    slap your wwrist.
                    \_ actually they didn't agree to it, that's why the
                       clerks are striking.
                       \_ Actually, they did. That's why the clerks make what
                          they make. Now they want to put the genie back in
                          the bottle. They have that right, but the reason
                          clerks are overpaid is that they agreed to do it.
                          \_ The pay, not the healthcare costs.
                 \_ Um, no.  Health insurance as we know it needs to be
                    completely dismantled.  My car insurance doesn't pay for my
                    oil changes--why should my health insurance pay for doctor
                    visits?
                    \_ It's not the doctor visits bankrupting the system. They
                       are cheap, and cheaper still when you consider that an
                       ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
                    \_ The two are not comparable, in my view. Car insurance
                       pays if you break someone else's car, not if your car
                       needs a valve job. -chialea
                       \_ That's what he just said, isn't it?
                          \_ And thus any comparison between the two is not
                             on, get it?  My driver's license doesn't allow
                             me to take cars, so why should my fishing license
                             allow me to take fish?
                             \_ Uh, I think we're in agreement but you lost me
                                when you started talking about fish.
                                \_ Just this: comparing car insurance with
                                   health insurance makes as much sense as
                                   comparing driver's licenses with fishing
                                   licenses.
                    \_ health >> driving around in your SUV.
                       \_ whats up with the class warfare?  he could be driving
                          a bug from the 60s for all you know.
2003/10/14 [Transportation/Motorcycle] UID:10624 Activity:nil
10/13   Bike dudes, I went on my motorcycle and at around 70MPH turned my
        wheels. When I turn right, I swerve to the left, and when I turn
        left, I swerve to the right. In another word, I turn OPPOSITE
        to where I turn the handle. I didn't die.
        \_ Miss America 2000, we are once again in need of your services!
           \_ If the hag on the bike had followed the rules of the road she
              would still be alive today.
           \_ And what was she driving when she killed that cyclist?
              You guessed it, an SUV. A Lincoln Navigator, to be exact.
                \_ looked on Google, can't find anything, hence your story
                   is fake.
        \_ this is called countersteering. You do it so that you have enough
           momentum to lean into the turn so that when you turn you don't
           tip over in the opposite direction from the centrifugal force.
        \_ My biker physics TA told the class about it too, but I didn't
           understand his explanation.
2003/10/14 [Uncategorized] UID:10625 Activity:nil
10/13   Are Purespin wedges decent to use on the course? Or should I get
        better ones like Titleist or Callaway? Thanks.
        \_ Just run over it with your SUV.
2003/10/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:10626 Activity:nil
10/14   Where's a place online to check for existing lawsuits? All I have
        are names...
        \_ a specific court or you want to find out if your ex-gf is
           getting divorced in some unknown state?
2003/10/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:10627 Activity:high
10/14   magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri.
        quis enim, consortes mei, non fateatur,
        cum puella incedit minore medio corpore
        sub quo manifestus globus, inflammare animos
        virtute praestare ut velitis, notantes bracas eius
        \_ J'aime de grands bouts.
           \_ "I like big butts"
        \_ that's a first
        \_ I love this.  On one hand critical of my broken English,
           on the other hand, endorce some European language.  White man's
           culture superiority at its best.
           \_ wtf are you talking about? i can't even read that, and i bet
              most people on here aren't fluent enough in whatever language
              that is to comment on it. why don't you go love yourself
              long time
              \_ Can't you people recognize latin when you see it?
                  \_ nope.  shalom.
                  \_ Hence, White Man's cultural superority.
2003/10/14-15 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:10628 Activity:high
10/14   Dammit, why did I waste all that time getting a BA from Berkeley when
        I could have just bought a fake degree?
        http://www.hep.uiuc.edu/home/g-gollin/diploma_mills.pdf
        \_ I ask myself that a lot.  With minimum gpa requirements enforced
           by some HR bimbo, I would've been better off with a 4.0 from
           Hayward than my 3.0 from Berkeley.
           \_ If you think a college degree is mostly about your
              marketability, you definitely made a poor choice coming to
              Berkeley.  -tom
              \_ Where's your degree from?  No, I didn't come to Berkeley with
                 marketability in mind.  It was the best school in the state
                 without paying in blood.
                 \_ so there's some advantage to going to the best school
                    in the state, other than marketability?  -tom
                    \_ where's your degree from?  yes, when you're 16 or 17
                       and don't know what you want to do with your life you
                       apply to everything you think you can get into and a few
                       above that and take the best you can afford.  is there
                       something odd about what i did?  btw, where's your
                       degree from?
                       \_ He doesn't have a degree.  He is a dropout.
                    \_ do you suffer from MPD or something? there are obvious
                       advantages, like access to presumably more knowledgeable
                       faculty, meeting smarter people, perhaps having a
                       chance to learn more, etc.
                        \_ the point I am making is that the reason to come
                           to a top liberal arts institution has nothing to
                           do with being able to get a better job later.  It
                           has to do with *learning*.  If you just want a
                           better job, go to DeVry.  -tom
                           \_ and if you have half a brain you can learn those
                              things by going to a second rate liberal arts
                              school or just reading on your own.
                              the real advantage of a top school is who
                              you meet there.
                              \_ I partied with Nick Weaver!
                        \_ It probably is true that it's harder for
                           someone with 3.0 from Berkeley to get a job
                           right out of college than someone with 4.0
                           from Hayward.  I remembered both Intel and
                           AT&T turned me down because I didn't make the
                           GPA cut-off point.  But after you have worked
                           for a while, it really doesn't matter anymore.
                           \_ You don't want to work for places too dumb gather
                              that a 3.0 from Berkeley EECS is more impressive
                              than a 4.0 from Cal State San Bernardino CS.
                                \_ the original poster is too dumb to gather
                                   that a degree from Berkeley is more
                                   useful than one from a diploma mill, so
                                   maybe he'd prefer this kind of organization
                                   \_ And you're too dense to be able to
                                      discern sarcasm without smilies or other
                                      stupid indicators. --OP
                                      \_ sorry I meant followup #1, not OP
           \_ Best payoff from that PDF is when he googles all the people
              claiming to have degrees from the "universities" in question,
              and finds a bunch of college professors, teachers, and clinical
              workers.
              \_ It gets better when he follows up on a forensic psychologist

                 with a PhD from Ashford University.
2003/10/14-15 [Computer/HW/Display] UID:10629 Activity:high
10/13   I want to know if graphics cards X can be installed in my box at
        work. The manufacturer offers my model with an optional GeForceFX
        5200 but nothing better. Is there a way, short of tiral and error
        to know if a given graphics card (say, a Radeon 9800) will fit given
        that I can see that the above card will fit? -- ulysses
        \_ Get physical specs on the exact card you're going to get.  They
           vary slightly by vendor.  Then simply measure free space in your
           case.  Also, that 9800 requires an extra power plug so you'll
           need a decent power supply too if you're already loaded up with
           ram, drives, and a honking cpu.  Do you have some dinky case?
           If not, I'd expect it to fit in most standard cases.
           \_ The case will fit a 2.5"x6.6" card in its AGP4X slot. I have
              not been able to find size specs for most cards via google and
              manufacturer websites beyond mention that the newer cards are
              "big" because of their cooling systems.
              \_ Try http://tomshardware.com.  They often mention sizes.  Or some of
                 the other hardware sites, anandtech, hardocp, etc.
           \_ It's a Dell minitower case.
2003/10/14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29573 Activity:nil
10/13   Democrats say Iraq has WMD
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1000604/posts
        \_ Have you even read the quotes?? Try harder, if you're going
           to troll.  At least come up with something substantial.
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/24    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:14 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>