Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:03 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2003/10/3 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:10433 Activity:nil
10/2    23:59 (196)wc /etc/motd
        1081    7568   67158 /etc/motd
2003/10/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10434 Activity:nil
10/2    Andrew Sullivan: READ THE (WMD) REPORT
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/994199/posts
2003/10/3 [Recreation/Computer] UID:10435 Activity:nil
10/2    I enjoy trolling the motd as much as the next guy, and I find it
        very fun writing half truths and seemingly logical statements that
        simply aren't and then letting it go where it goes.  Today's motd
        is so full of flat out lies and complete and utter illogic fueled
        solely by personal agendas and general bad-think that not even I,
        your friendly neighborhood part time troll, find it fun to read.
        Hate, hate, hate.  What the hell is wrong with you people?  Where's
        the censors when you need them?  I suspect the same people who would
        normally wipe all this and mostly never post are the ones who just
        turned the motd from a fun troll hangout and tech question center into
        their own personal realm of hatred spewing.  It was better when you
        clowns kept to yourselves and just hit the delete key a lot and
        otherwise left us trolls and techies alone.  --!happy,!hateful,+troll
        \_ vi or emacs?
        \_ this post is boring and sucks.
           \_ good example of missing the point.  it isn't supposed to be
              exciting.  you want exciting?  get off your thumb and go be
              useful to someone somewhere in the world.
              \_ I don't care about your point. I was making my own point.
                 Are you a fat sysadmin by any chance?
        \_ You're fired.  -John, King of the Trolls
2003/10/3 [Politics/Domestic, Politics] UID:10436 Activity:nil
10/2    Why does Rush lose his job while Dusty Baker gets to keep his
        after saying:
        "Personally, I like to play in the heat. It's easier for most Latin
        guys and most minority people because most of us come from the heat.
        You don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and the
        Upper Peninsula of Michigan, right? I mean we were brought over for
        the heat, right? I mean, ain't that history? Weren't we brought over
        here because we could take the heat?"
          http://www.illinoisleader.com/columnists/columnistsview.asp?c=6946
          http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0703/page071503.asp
        \_ If you thought about this you'd figure it out. Well, maybe you
           wouldn't, since you're pretty committed to your premise.
           \_ Why bother posting?  Ooooh, you're so mysterious and all knowing
              and wise!  You have Greater Wisdom you can't reveal to us
              peasants!  The truth is there's a double standard.  That's the
              answer to the OP's question.
        \_ umm... Dusty is black. Rush is white?
           \_ So it's ok for a non-white to be racist and say racist things?
2003/10/3-4 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:10437 Activity:nil
10/2    Java's cover:
        http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html
        \_ The sun internal memo is good reading as well. Lots of projects
           at sun (and elsewhere) that need to provide robust functionality
           in a small memory foot print have rejected java in favor of c
           or perl because of the reasons outlined in that memo. Java might
           have been a good idea but its implementation is terrible.
           \_ 99% of applications out there don't need a small memory footprint
              \_ The embedded market is huge. That's who they're talking about.
              \_ You would be surprised how many applications that run on
                 general purpose hardware/os need to have a small memory
                 footprint per instance (and/or thread). When you have to
                 handle hundreds of simultaneous requests, something that
                 takes 10 mb of memory to just stand up and another 50 or
                 so to run (per instance) puts a huge burden on them system.
                 I'm not even considering the io/cpu load that a java pgm
                 places on the system. You can also forget about writing
                 cli utilites with java, since the startup time for the vm
                 is long.
                 \_ 1. 60 megs is nothing these days.  Really.  My laptop has
                    a gig of memory.  Any server should have more.  And java
                    doesn't take that much memory on my system.  And if you
                    make the vm constantly resident (for such things as
                    servlets) the startup time isn't an issue.  Look I'm not
                    saying Java is the One True programing language, I'm
                    saying nothing is.  Different tools for different jobs.
                    Java is pretty good at what it does.  And for the embeded
                    market it has worked pretty well too.  I for one think
                    the whole language world is pretty stagnent right now
                    and someone needs to create a c++ killer that, gives
                    you total control over memory, enables you to be as fast
                    as C if you need it, and isn't the ugly piece of shit c++
                    is.  Hell maybe someone should stop trying to copy C
                    syntax and typing and come up with something new that
                    works.  But until then I'll make do with what is out there
                    and for some jobs Java works well, for some perl, and
                    for other C++.
                    \_ Out of curiosity, how many languages do you know?
                         -- ilyas
                     \_ I've done major projects with c/c++, perl, and
                        java.  I have played around with lots of others:
                        python, smalltalk, ruby, eifle, ocaml, objective c,
                        and others I've forgotten about.  I'd love to do
                        a serious project in any of those, but I've never
                        had a reason to.  And as I've said, I'd really like
                        to see a good C replacement type language for doing
                        stuff C/C++ should be used for (which sadly is a lot
                        less than it IS used for.)
                        \_ I am an ocaml fan.  I think you can use ocaml for
                           most stuff people use c++ for these days, except
                           maybe some kinds of system work.  I like lisp too.
                           People think of lisp as slow, but it's not.  -- ilyas
2003/10/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:10438 Activity:nil
10/2    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        http://www.wavygravy.net
2003/10/3 [Reference/BayArea, Academia/Berkeley] UID:10439 Activity:high
10/2    I just met a Cal alum who told me that in the 80s it was legal to
        carry up to 4 rolled joints in Berkeley.  True?  When did that change
        and why?
        \_ When I was an R.A. in the early-mid 90s, we had a training/info
           session with UCPD.  One of the topics was drug use/possession in
           the Res Halls.  As I remember, the officer told us to not bother
           calling them about a student in possession of marijuana in the
           amount of 1-3 joints.  They said they just would not bother with
           it, and told us to write it up, and just flush it down a toilet.
           I am not sure if it's "legal" to have a joint, just that they
           are not going to enforce it.  --chris
           \_ Well the story as told was that he saw 2 guys walking down
              telegraph smoking, and 2 cops coming from the other direction.
              Instead of busting them or frowning, one cop took a quick puff.
        \_ It's not legal. However, you can't get charged with the felony
           "possession with intent to deal."
        \_ In the early 90s the Berkeley City Council passed a rule telling
           the PD that marijuana enforcement was their "lowest possible
           priority." It still wasn't legal, but almost.
        \_ Pseudo decriminalised as one of the above posters says.
        \_ Marijuana possession was decriminalized so that small amounts
           are ok so that most users (i.e., white ppl) won't be jailed, but
           most dealers (ppl of color, i.e., not the middle ppl dealers)
           are jailed. You don't want your pot smoking in college to catch
           up with you when you get into the real world, right? If it wasn't
           decriminalized, you couldn't run for governor or president or
           hold a decent job.
          \_ Not only dealers of color but homeless users are regularly
             prosecuted as well.  How many frat boys do you see charged
             with public intoxication?  How many homeless people?  -sky
             \_ Somehow I don't find myself really sympathetic to "drug dealers
                of color" as some sort of protected class.  How unfortunate
                that "drug dealers of color" are prosecuted.  How many do I
                see charged with anything?  I've been living in Berkeley for
                several years longer than you and I've never seen *anyone*
                charged with public intoxication or much of anything else.
                Crime has been decriminalised in Berkeley.  It's unfair to
                the criminals to prosecute them!  We don't prosecute the
                non-criminals, right?  So why punish just the criminals?
2003/10/3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10440 Activity:kinda low
10/2    http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
        \_ Good that someone is doing this, but I don't like the fact that the
        \_ Good that someone is doing this, but I don't like the fac that the
           government isn't doing it directly.
2003/10/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:10441 Activity:nil
10/3    Another victory for the animal rights movement!  Go Team!
        http://www.startribune.com/stories/1451/4133880.html
        \_ Dammit, haven't any of these whackos seen 28 Days Later?
2003/10/3-4 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10442 Activity:nil
10/3    Any Jews here would like to comment on the Arnie's father being a
        Nazi?  Would you not vote for him because of that?  This sins of
        the father doesn't work in the US.  But I can imagine it working in
        Europe and Asia.
        \_ Sure.  Nothing to do with it.  Voting for Tom anyway.  Arnold isn't
           a conservative.
2003/10/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:10443 Activity:nil
10/3    Enough with the politics.
        \_ too late.  new threads being created every day.
2003/10/3 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:10444 Activity:nil
10/3    I like to run a script to tell me what changes have been made to
        the motd-- it lets me follow the responses as they happen and stores
        the changes so I can read them later if someone nukes the motd.
        Recently, however, my processes have been Suspended (and show up
        Stopped (T) in ps).  Is this a new development?  Or is someone with
        access just hosing any script having to do with the MOTD just 'cos?
        \_ isn't there already motdwatch?
2003/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10445 Activity:nil
10/3    So does Godwins law make this thread over before it begins?
        http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/03/national/03BOOK.html?hp
        \_ There's absolutely no way that this could be discussed in any
           rational manner for more than four lines in the motd
2003/10/3 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:10446 Activity:high
10/3    No selective censorship.  You got smashed on one of the debates so
        you killed the whole thing plus a few new links that are demonstrate
        real world evidence that is contrary to your political beliefs yet
        you added on to places where you thought you were doing better.  It's
        all gone now.
        \_ What the hell are you talking about?
           \_ You can read English?  -!op
              \_ Yup.  Still can't tell what he's bangin' on about.
                 \_ I think it's that time of month.
                 \_ OP said it in plain English.  Whatever.  -!op
                    \_ I'm a new poster, but I would like to know what topics
                       OP is talking about.
                    \_ "that are demonstrate real world" is plain English?
                       \_ after-edit by some scum bag.  its the motd.
        \_ as one of the ppl who were "debating," I have no clue wtf he's
           talking about.  Is he referring to the cons or the libs?  Btw,
           I'm fairly certain there's more than one conservative who posts
           on the motd, and I know for sure there's multiple libs, so whom the
           singular "you" refers to, I have no clue.  -nivra
           \_ finally, we agree on something. :)
           \_ "you" would be whomever did the selective deleting, wouldn't it?
              I believe you when you say, "I have no clue".
2003/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:10447 Activity:nil
10/3    "There is still some intense fighting to be done, especially out
         in the west," he said. "We should not be surprised if one of these
         mornings we wake up and ... there has been a major firefight with
         some casualties or a significant terrorist attack that kills
         significant numbers of people."
        \_ That's nice.  Who said it and URLp?
           \_ Look up the quote on http://news.google.com.  News sites have had
              a tendency to self-censor this quote.
              \_ Uh huh... so you can't even give us a name?  Get the fuck
                 outta here.  No one has time to search for your random ass
                 nameless quote.  It's just not that interesting.
2003/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10448 Activity:nil
10/3    You all know what Arnold has been doing is better classified as
        sexual assault than groping right?  Groping is what you did when
        you managed to find a date this year.
        \_ Most g33ks can't tell the difference since you get points
           for either in a dating sim.
        \_ Oh, I dunno... I've done some of the same things and got laid
           like that.  You just need to pick the right girls.
           \_ uh, yeah. i do those things all the time, too.  just always to
              the same person, who i happen to be married to.  obviously
              grabbing nipples or buttocks isn't automatically assault, but
              in the context in which arnie did them, they certainly are.
              also, holding the governor of America's most populous state
              to higher standards than your average sodan seems to me like
              a good idea.
              \_ you know that in CA that's still sexual assault even when
                 it's your wife?  you do not have the right to rape your
                 wife in CA.  what you're doing to your wife is no different
                 in the eyes of the law than what Arnold has been accused of
                 doing.  we didn't hold the former President of the United
                 States to a higher standard than the average sodan so why
                 does character suddenly count when it's our Governor?  If
                 character counts then you should by the first one out there
                 voting to get rid of Davis.  Now go live by your principles,
                 stop commiting sexual assault on your wife, vote against Davis
                 and vote for someone with character for Governor of CA.
                 \_ LESBIAN SEPERATIST HACKORS UNITE!!!! ALL SEX IS RAPE!!!
                    \_ Heh, you laugh but I dated one who was like that.
                 \_ This is one of the stupidest replies I've read on the
                    motd, ever.
                    \_ *laugh* You sure did a *great* job of countering
                       everything I said.  If you've got nothing to say, then
                       say nothing.  If it was so stupid it should be easy to
                       correct me.  All you've done is waste bits.  Here, let
                       me save you the trouble of writing the obvious reply.
                       You're thinking, "it was too stupid to correct, it was
                       so obviously stupidest!"  Let's go on from there.
                       \_ There is no indication that what he did to his wife
                          was nonconsensual, you just made that assumption.
                          \_ I think 'did to his wife' ought to have been
                             written 'did with his wife'.
2003/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:10449 Activity:nil
10/3    "Drug use, some might say, is destroying this country. And so if
        people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused
        and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up," he
        said to his audience during the broadcast. - name that conservative
        \_ "Absurdly high levels of imprisonment, some might say, is
            destroying this country..."
            \_ You're right.  We need more executions.
        \_ If he was a liberal you'd be screaming that he's been framed by
           the VRWC which owns and controls all media and we shouldn't judge
           until there's been a trial by his hollywood peers.
           \_ Er.. When was the last time you heard a liberal saying that we
              should lock up more drug offenders.  And you miss the point.  The
              op is pointing out the hypocrisy.  Not the drugs.
              \_ You miss the point, intentionally I believe.  I'm talking
                 about liberal & liberal media hypocrisy, not drugs.
                 \_ And now you've missed MY point.  And no, liberals wouldn't
                    be screaming that one of their own was framed.  They would
                    realize that he had a problem and hope for his sake that
                    he could own up to it and get the help he needed.  And they
                    wouldn't have ranted idiotically about drugs being the
                    downfall of society at the same time as they were making
                    some side cash dealing.
                    \_ Simple counter point to the concept that liberals are
                       all enlightened and would hope the poor guy would seek
                       help: Bill Clinton.  Here's another: any Kennedy.  And
                       of course a liberal wouldn't bitch about drugs.
                       Liberals *like* a well drugged population.  It keeps
                       them stupid and passive.
                       \_ When did Bill Clinton or the Kennedys start posting
                          on motd.  And your so called counter point rests on
                          a proof by counter-example against a broad
                          generalization.  Doesn't hold water, pal.
                          \_ Who posts on the motd has nothing to do with
                             anything.  When you stop ducking, bobbing, and
                             weaving, come back.
                             \_ No, really.  Do you seriously not recognize
                                Rush's hypocrisy?  Was your initial lashout
                                borne from a deeply held respect for the man?
                                Or were you the one trying to deflect the
                                conversation?
                                \_ Duck, bob, weave.  You've already convicted
                                   the man based on what his maid from two
                                   years ago is alleged to have said.  I still
                                   believe in that quaint notion about innocent
                                   until proven guilty in a court of law and
                                   all that other fancy democracy and freedom
                                   stuff.  I'm not sure why but I put due
                                   process above whatever it is you're basing
                                   your unfounded claims on.  If the story is
                                   true then he's not a hypocrite but simply
                                   insane because anyone in this country can
                                   get any prescription drug they want without
                                   using their maid(!!!!) as a dealer!  Can
                                   you not see this story is idiotic on it's
                                   face?
           \_ Whoever it is, he's an idiot.  His logical premise is that
              because some people believe something, we should punish other
              people extra harshly.
              \_ Keep up with current events, dude.  It's Rush.
              \_ No, that's not the premise at all.  Try again grasshopper.
2003/10/3-4 [Computer/SW/Editors/Emacs] UID:10450 Activity:nil
10/3    Anybody know of a linux application to create and view SVG's? I know
        I could "draw" them in emacs-xml-mode, but I want to see them!
        \_ I think KDE 3.2 will partially support them.
        \_ http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg
2003/10/3-4 [Uncategorized] UID:10451 Activity:nil
10/3    Wack-a-goth!   http://www.powergothgirls.com/games/whackagoth.html
2003/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10452 Activity:nil
10/3    Does McClintock have a chance now?  I think (hope) Davis will still
        be recalled.  Perhaps the Democrat-controlled legislature will
        prevent any wacky pro-life or tax cuts for the rich moves.  Does
        anyone think there will be reliable poll data released before
        Tuesday?
        \_ No because the people have seen through the LA Times' sleazy
           last second hatchet job.  I'm still voting for Tom anyway.
        \_ Because of Arnold's confession yesterday (I'm sorry I got caught) I
           can't cast a vote for him.
           \_ http://helptom.com
           \_ Are you referring to the serial groping or the Hitler comments?
        \_ Does anyone think Republican officials are kind of steamed that
           they finally endorsed Arnold, then the LA Times showed he was such
           a cad?  Let's assume it was totally scripted by the left-wing
           Davis-sympathizers and media, too.
           \_ There was nothing new in the LA Times.
        \_ Has anyone else changed their mind due to these revelations?
           I am still voting for the recall, but was trying to decide
           whether or not to vote for Arnold. I had pretty much decided
           to, but then this came out. Now I am voting for Georgie. -AM liberal
           \_ I'm going to switch my vote from Arnie to McClintock, and
              hope to god Bustamante doesn't win.
              \_ I hope Bustamante doesn't win.  He's weak.  I am for the
                 recall, I don't think CA is better off with any these
                 candidates.
                 \_ Actually, while I'm against the recall on principle,
                    I like the effect it's had on Davis-- he's finally
                    doing some of the radical things I look for in a
                    liberal candidate.  If another recall would make him
                    declare amnesty for illegal migrant workers, legalize
                    dope, and put together a statewide universal health-
                    care system, I'd sign the petition.
                    \_ Come on, that's too obvious.  Your troll fu is weak.
                       \_ It's a valid point.
                          \_ Maybe gov office should up for vote every year.
                             \_ The problem is we don't have elections in CA
                                anymore since the whole state is so incredibly
                                gerrymandered.  Almost none of the people in
                                office have any chance of losing their seat.
                                \_ Well, no. Because of term limits. But other
                                   wise you are right.
                                   \_ They just swap seats.  Term limits hasn't
                                      helped as much as I'd hoped.  You still
                                      get "safe" districts where one party is
                                      absolutely guaranteed to win the seat.
2003/10/3-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10453 Activity:nil
10/3    Kay's Report, minus the ranting:
        http://csua.org/u/4m3 (CIA page)
        (Many thanks to the first person who posted this.)
        \_ I'm loving Richard Boucher hyping the vial of botulinum found.
           There's probably more in a cubic foot of dirt in the backyard
           than in a single vial of bacteria.
           \_ Isn't botulism toxin the stuff Ann Coulter injects into
              her face to give it that rictus like quality?
              \_ You're thinking of the lawyer chick from OJ, then cnn, now
                 on Fox.  Greta something?  Coulter is simply hot.
           \_ Look, you can buy it on the internet:
              link:csua.org/u/4m7
              \_ I can buy anything on the internet.  yermom was cheap and
                 no shipping!
        \_ So to summarize, they were at least two years from being able
           to produce Sarin, had stopped research on nuclear weapons and
           had some sort of fragmentary dual use bioweapons research
           program. And an intent to purchase or develop some longer range
           missles than allowed by UN 1441. But no WMD, right?
           But they still might show up in the 600,000 tons of unsearched
           munitions, admittedly.
        \_ So to summarize, there's some hints of stuff but with 600,000 tons
           more shit to go through no one can be sure what's there or not and
           they need more time.  It's only a preliminary report as stated on
           the first page, not a final report.
2003/10/3-5 [Computer/Rants, Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:10454 Activity:nil
10/3    http://www.ucomics.com/foxtrot/2003/10/03
        \_ Bill Amend released a patch:
                http://homepage.mac.com/billamend
2003/10/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10455 Activity:nil
10/3    MARIA: You really don't like politicians, do you?
        ARNOLD: I like two or three, but I'm not really sure about
          one of them.  I don't think the system works.
        MARIA: How would you have it work?
        ARNOLD: We need a system where the politicians sit down and
          discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of
          all the people, and then do it.
        MARIA: That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that
          people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do.
        ARNOLD: Then they should be made to.
        MARIA: By whom? Who's going to make them?
        ARNOLD: I don't know. Someone.
        MARIA: You?
        ARNOLD: Of course not me.
        MARIA: But someone.
        ARNOLD: Someone wise.
        MARIA: That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.
        ARNOLD: Well, if it works...
        \_ source?
           \_ Star Wars ep2.  A quick google could've told you that.
              \_ It actually sounds a fair bit like Arnold.  Also, you're
                 kinda nerdy.
                 \_ no, recongnizing quotes from star trek I is nerdy.
                    it's just star wars.
                        \_ The Star Wars geeks always make fun of the Star\
                        Trek geeks, when in fact they are closely related.
                         \_ ok, fine.  "star wars geeks" and star trek
                            geeks are closely related.  the point is that
                            millions of non-geeks have seen star wars, whereas
                            *only* star trek geeks have seen, say, star trek
                            6.  I'm not trying to start some partisain debate
                            here.  i'm both a star trek geek and a star wars
                            geek.
                 \_ I wasn't the OP.  I just took it upon myself to see if
                    I could answer my question.  You could have done the same.
        \_ You're all losers trying to equate Star wars/trek with anything in
           the real world.  Go away and die, please.
2003/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10456 Activity:nil
10/3    The Arnold camp has really pulled it off this time.  They managed to
        create a false scandal and then reap an extra 2% from it!  Those
        bastards!  http://www.thesandiegochannel.com/politics/2530527/detail.html
2003/10/3-5 [Computer/Domains, Computer/SW/Security] UID:10457 Activity:nil
10/3    About freakin time...
        http://boston.internet.com/news/article.php/3087071
        \_ what? why? i found their search page a fresh and welcome change
           to my dull typo-filled life.
2003/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:10458 Activity:nil
10/3    Right, so I understand why nobody likes Gray Davis.  What is the
        rationale behind hating Cruz Bustamante?
        \_ He's a disloyal opportunist who's proposed giving drivers licenses
           to illegal aliens, which is a cheap way of getting the Latino
           vote.  Being the lieutenant gov, he's also part of the establishment
           that got us into this mess.
           \_ Waitasec.  So you're the lone Davis loyalist out here?  Or
              do you hate Davis but also loathe Bustamante for running
              as the only Dem replacement?
              \_ I don't want to vote for Davis or Bustamante.  To me,
                 Bustamante seems like a "right place right time" candidate.
        \_ He'll sell the state to mexico for a song?  He'll tax you so he
           can give your money to illegals?  He's "more of the same"?
           \_ He's a greasy Mexican, isn't it obvious?
              \_ RACIST FUCKER!
              \_ doesn't he pretty much tell Mexicans to vote for him because
                 he is Mexican? I've never seen that done so obviously before.
              \_ I'm praying you're being facetious here.
           \_ In other words, he was against Prop 187 and supported the
              "drivers licences for illegals" measure?  So if I'm against
              Prop 187 I should vote for him?
                \_ sure if you want to compete with mexicans for jobs
                   \_ For what jobs?  The folks benefiting from the repeal
                      of 187 aren't code monkeys.
                \_ not at all unless you're a mindless single-agenda voter.
                   that's your choice but others have more concerns.
           \_ He doesn't seem to know the difference between "immigrant" and
              "illegal immigrant".
              \_ he does.  like all pro-illegal whores he intentionally ignores
                 the difference.
           \_ He's quoted as saying "Just because the border moved doesn't
              mean the people did."
        \_ Actually 187 is another Davis "fuck you" since he promised he'd
           fight for it before he got into office and then just, oh, sort of
           didn't afterwards.  Whether or not you liked 187, you can add the
           lie to his plate.  Hey, how weird!  He did the exact same thing over
           the budget gap at the last election cycle!  Must be an anti-Davis
           conspiracy from the right wing hordes!
2003/10/3-5 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10459 Activity:kinda low
10/3    I'm thinking of voting for McClintock now.  Can you give a somewhat
        moderate republican reasons not to?  Go wild, I'll decide what I agree
        with and what I don't.
        \_ I'm not a conservative, but it seems to me that this is analogous
           to the quandry facing a liberal in the 2000 presidential election.
           you could vote for the guy who stands for something but has
           no chance of winning(nader/mclintock) or the guy who might actually
           win(gore/arnold).  I can think of no other reason for anyone
           with half a brain to vote for Arnold.  I *strongly* urge people
           to download the debate from http://www.cspan.org if you missed it
           and watch the whole thing.  if you look at how arnold talks about
           issues and conducts himself with other people, this is not
           someohone who is going to be able to get anythying done
           in a state where the legislature is fighting him.
           \_ Yep.  Californians were stupid to re-elect Davis and are stupid
              again to elect Arnold.  Vote for the one with most experience!
              \_ Experience alone is not the best way to go.  Here's my
                 obGodwin's comment: by 1944 Hitler had a lot of experience
                 but I wouldn't suggest voting for him.
                 \_ Why not? He had charisma and principles, and promised to
                    fix the injustices of World War I! Damn polish corridor.
                    \_ True, it was mostly just the Jews, gypsies, queers and
                       other undesirables he was gassing, so hey, ya know,
                       everyones got to hate someone!
        \_ Look, Arnold has a lot of independents and moderates, they are not
           going to vote for a guy who is pro-life, even if the Gov. has no say
           say in the matter.
        \_ Cruz
        \_ McClintock may seem like the smartest individual running in the
           California Gubernatorial race, and may be straightforward and
           honest, but one quick look at his standings on social issues should
           scare away any moderate, be it Republican or no.
           \_ he's smart, and he's principled on social issues.  He's great.
        \_ McClintock is the only canidate I've seen with an actual plan for
           the budget.  Serious about spending cuts and such.  Has real
           numbers and percentages about what should go to what.  Arnold
           always seemed kinda sketchy on the subject, nevermind about
           Bustemonte.
           \_ I can tell that you're well informed, what with the spelling
              of Bustamante that you've invented here.
              \_ spelling flames always put em in their place!  sick em!
                 \_ you misspelled "seck um".
                    \_ no, I correctly spelled "sick em".  thanks!
                        \_ Not if you meant, "sic 'em!"
                           \_ I said what I meant.  You understood.  Now go
                              stick your head in a pig, you vermin.
           \_  Well, it comes down to this.  I hate Davis.  I believe that
               Cruz is actually worse than Davis, I was going to vote for
               Arnie, but now I don't think I can go against my standing
               on what Bill Clinton did and Arnold also did (granted Arnold
               admitted it, didn't lie about it, and didn't commit purgery
               while holding office, but he was still wrong and I'm not sure
               I want to allow his mindset not to hurt him).  I am pro-choice
               but I think McClintock is all I have left (or georgie).  -op
               \_ "Purgery"? Are you accusing Clinton of bulimia?
                  \_ and Einstein was in the lower 30th percentile in spelling
                     as well.
                     \_ While that may be factually correct, it's contextually
                        irrelevant.  Nice try.
                        \_ Weird.  That was exactly the right context.  I don't
                           think context means what you think it means.
                           \_ Don't be stupid.
                              \_ Sigh.  Why bother posting non-comments like
                                 this?  If you've got nothing to add, just
                                 don't.  The motd already has enough noise.
                                 \_ Right, and your post helped that SO much.
                  \_ You are brilliant!  Two spelling flames in one thread
                     while holding back anything intelligent in reply!  That
                     is a master stroke of debate strategy!
        \_ Here's how I see it. I don't think it's good to have Arnie become
           governor. I'm opposed in principle to this recall election. I don't
           particularly care about Davis one way or the other. I think  a vote
           for McClintock is a throwaway vote. I hate Bustamante; wtf is  he
           particularly care about Davis one way or the other. I think
           a vote for McClintock is a throwaway vote. I hate Bustamante; wtf is
           he even in the election for? Wtf is a "backup"? Is he or is he not a
           even in the election for? Wtf is a "backup"? Is he or is he not a
           Democrat, if he is why is he running against Davis? Slimeball. Then
           there's all the other candidates which are also throwaways. It's
           either Davis, Arnie, or Busty, which is why I'm still voting no on
           recall and yes on Arnie. I'd prefer McClintock over Arnie but I feel
           he just helps Busty. I guess I might consider Busty in spite of my
           distaste, but then, Gov. Arnie has the entertainment factor.
           \_ How can you live in this state and not care one way or the other
              about Davis?  And you're going to vote with that level of
              indifference and apathy?  What for?
              \_ ok, correction: I dislike Davis. But everything is relative.
                 The only people I might actually *like* have no chance.
                 \_ My guy isn't going to win but I'm going to vote for him
                    even if it means the so-so guy loses to the scumbag.
           \_ The only advantage I see for Arnold as Gov. (as a conservative)
              is his star power helping more R's getting elected to the
              legislature (which is where the real changes need to happen).
              He himself doesn't believe in a single conservative principle.
           \_ On Bustamante:  What were the Dems supposed to do, stick to
              their guns and field no candidate in case the recall went
              through?  This makes no statistical sense.  Offering folks
              a way to get rid of Davis _and_ keep the state liberal
              makes a ton of political sense.
              \_ Just think about it for a sec. Bustamante claims he wants ppl
                 to vote "no on recall, yes on busty". But the only way Busty
                 would get elected is if people vote yes on recall. The Dem
                 party can't have it both ways, they either support Davis or
                 not. Busty in the race just makes Gov. Arnie more likely.
                 The only reason republicans have multiple candidates is
                 McClintock's obstinacy and the fact that there was no primary
                 so there's no way to say who's the official repub. candidate.
                 \_ Thought about, and I still can't make sense of not
                    having a Dem in the running, should the recall go
                    through:  remember, there are two votes going down
                    here; on one, it's Davis vs. himself; in the other,
                    it's Arnold vs. whoever the Dems run; if the Dems run
                    no possible replacement candidate, they can't possibly
                    beat Arnie if the recall goes through, right?  Running
                    Cruz on a "No on Recall, yes on Cruz" ticket covers
                    both bets.
                    \_ It's the politcally smart thing to do.  If it was the
                       other way around and my party didn't put a candidate
                       up I'd be screaming bloody murder.  It isn't the
                       principled thing to do.
                    \_ Well it only covers the situation where the No votes
                       on recall aren't enough, but are enough to get most
                       votes for Cruz while the Yes-on-recall votes are
                       scattered amongst the field. But the problem is that
           recall and yes on Arnie. I'd prefer McClintock over Arnie but I feel
           he just helps Busty. I guess I might consider Busty in spite of my
           distaste, but then, Gov. Arnie has the entertainment factor.
                       Cruz is not a good candidate and is not going to get
                       all or I expect even most of the Dem replacement vote.
                       Instead, I expect that a sizeable group of idiots will
                       vote yes on recall and vote for Cruz.
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/24    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:03 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>