Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:01 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
 
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2003/10/1-3 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/WWW/Server] UID:10390 Activity:nil
10/1    OpenSSL vulnerabilities.  Patchpatchpatch...
        http://www.openssl.org/news/secadv_20030930.txt  -John
        \_ is it enough to get install the new ssl rpm or does my mod_ssl
           need to be recompiled?
           \_ depends on whether mod_ssl is linked statically or not. I believe
              it's not since the only new RedHat updates that showed up today
              are openssl ones. In general, they a rarely use static linking,
              so to update a library, you just need to install the new library
              rpm and not worry about the applications that use it.
        \_ My new plan.  Fuck ssh/ssl.  I'm changing all external connections
           to vpn-only and then filtering the shit out of who is allowed to
           even try to connect to that.
                \_ Oh *that* will work.  Because we all know that every VPN
                   solution out there is utterly foolproof and secure.  Nobody
                   ever cracked DES or IOS.  Blanket statements like that are
                   incredibly ignorant and dangerous (although if it makes you
                   feel safer, go ahead.)  There is nothing fundamentally
                   wrong with OpenSSH/SSL--no computer or software is or
                   will ever be 100% secure.  Just patch the fucking thing
                   and get on with your life.  There'll be others.  -John
                   \_ You're so ... manly! when you talk about security, John.
                      It makes my heart go "thump! thump! thump!"  Can I have
                      your love child?  Your IPSEC key?
        \_ DOS vulnerability.  Not remote exploit.
2003/10/1 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:10391 Activity:nil
9/30    I'm not a very mathy person, but I've found myself in dire need of
        a good root-finding algorithm.  I've currently got a piece of
        software that uses Mueller's Method -- but it sometimes generates
        whack results that crash a rather twitchy third party piece of
        software as it iterates.  The curves I'm examining can be assumed to
        be monotonic.  Can I do better than Mueller's, or am I SOL?  TIA. -mice
        \_ Use Mathworld to look up 'root finding' and find the root finding
           method which will work best for the kind of function you have.
           Using mathworld for this sort of thing is a good meta-skill to learn.
        \_ you'd probably find a numerical analysis text more useful than
           mathworld. try checking one out at a college library if you can.
           there are not that many root-finding methods that are actually
           used much in real life.
        \_ One technique to explore-- see if you can parameterize your
           curve on some region of interest by a [0,1] lambda.  I.e.. munge
           your algebra around until you can get a diff from root as a
           function of some linear parameter.  If your curve is nice,
           consider golden section or binary search.  Another thing to do
           is just chop up lambda into increments, evaluate diff, and
           pick the best guess at root (or refine search in a region of
           the best approx from a linear visit across lambda).  Not the
           niftiest method in the universe, but it gets the job done.
2003/10/1 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:10392 Activity:nil
9/30    Does anyone know the labor laws in here in CA? Are employers
        allowed to force their employees to take breaks?
        \_ Force? There are labor laws on the books to protect you.
        \_ Oh evil boss man!  Please don't make me stop working yet continue
           to pay me!  Oh and stop buying me free lunch and snacks too!  Woe!
2003/10/1 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10393 Activity:nil
9/30    Bustamante: "They are against food"
        http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/insider
        \_ You know, it's sad how little the context redeems this quote.
        \_ I'm tempted to read the link but I think I'll skip this one.
           \_ Ok, I lied.  It was too much.  I understand what he was _trying_
              to say after thinking about it in context but he's still an
              anti-American, blame-America-first, kill-whitey kinda guy.
2003/10/1 [Uncategorized] UID:10394 Activity:nil
9/30    Bard's Tale is back:
        http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/thebardstale/news_6076186.html
        \_ BT was better off dead.  Let me explain combat:
           round 1: two front line characters die, cleric resurrects both,
                    wizard kills a few hundred monsters with 1 spell
                    wizard kills a few monsters with 1 spell
           round 2: repeat round 1 until out of monsters
2003/10/1 [Academia/GradSchool] UID:10395 Activity:nil
9/30    My friend says Berkeley CS MS is reserved for Berkeley CS PhD
        rejects-- in another word if you kick ass and applied PhD but
        got rejected, they'll offer you the MS with the possibility of
        going into PhD. Is that a rumor or is that true? Any UCB grad
        student wanna confirm this?
        \_ The question is about Cal, but I believe this policy tends to
           be true for all schools.
           \_ It is true for Texas aerospace eng. and Cal math at a minimum.
              The master's is a consolation prize. This probably varies
              by dept. as well. Public policy has a thriving master's program.
              --dim
        \_ don't have an answer, but if it were true then isn't it better
           to apply to PhD and hope you'll get deferred to the MS program
           rather than applying to MS directly?
           \_ no, no, it's if you get IN to the PhD program, pass your classes
              and quals (if applicable) but either a) choose to leave the
              program at that point or b) are asked to leave before you finish
              your defence. Thus "consolation prize" -- you're trying to get
              a PhD, you don't make it for one reason or another. This
              sort of thing is confined to things where you tend to go for
              a PhD stright from undergrad, like CS. Exception: Stanford-style
              pay-throught-the-nose-support-the-PhD-students terminal
              masters, and some speciality programs (HCI at CMU) -chialea
        \_ There are two ways to get a masters.  One way is you get in on a
           masters program and you do your time and you get the degree and
           alls well.  When you do that you tend to take a very different
           course load than the first 2 years of a PhD program because well,
           you know you are only going to be there for 2 years.  The other
           way is you start out as a PhD, and after a few years there you get
           a masters somewhere (depends on the program, but at some milestone
           most PhD programs give a masters) and then realize you really don't
           have what it is going to take to get a PhD, drop out and voila,
           you have a masters.
2003/10/1 [Computer/SW] UID:10396 Activity:low
10/1    I think I just f*'ed up a $500K software sale.... happens to
        everyone, right?
        \_ No, only sales guys.
        \_ Were you on the buying or selling end?  If you were the buyer,
           then you just earned a raise, bonus, *and* promotion.  There's
           precious little software out there worth $500k.  If you were the
           seller, I suggest you go rent a copy of GG/GR.
        \_ really curious... how do you think you f'ed it up?
        \_ How much would you have had from it, if this sale did go through?
           Just curious..
2003/10/1 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:10397 Activity:moderate
10/1    I mailed in my voter registeration and absentee ballot request in
        the SAME envelope.  But today I got a reply from the county saying
        their system does not show I am registered hence they couldn't
        mail me the absentee ballot.  How stupid is that?  Now it is past
        the deadline for both the registration and the basentee ballot.  I
        wanted to exercise my right as a citizen but stupid Santa Clara
        County just won't allow me to do it.
        \_ Are you black, mexican, gay pedophile or transgendered -
           if so contact the ACLU to sue.  Too bad you're name is not Jose or
           Juan-Carlos, then you could vote as many times as you want.
           \_ Oh you poor overprivileged bastard.  If only you were allowed
              to commit voter fraud..
           \_ Yeah, because as the ACLU would tell you, only minorities are
              too stupid to figure out a ballot or how to register.  They
              don't mean it to be patronizing or anything.  They just
              understand the 'difficulties' people from other cultures have
              with our Whitey controlled electoral system.
              \_ Yeah, because we only update the voting facilities of
                 white communities.  Why bother with absentee ballots?
                 They've all been invalidated since Arianna dropped out
                 of the election.
                 \_ Arianna dropping out invalidates nothing.  You're a nut.
                    That's like saying Marey Carey and that dwarf dropped out
                    so it invalidates them.  Nonsense.  Huffington shouldn't
                    have even been in the debates with poll numbers so low.
        \_ Well now you can refuse all responsibility for whatever stupidity
           Juan-Carlos, then you could ote as many times as you want.
           comes out of it, with a clean conscience.
           \_ No, it's now partially his fault if something stupid happens and
              he would've voted for something else.  We need more people like
              you around to not vote so my vote means more.
2003/10/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10398 Activity:low
10/1    Joseph C. Wilson:"The issue is really transfer of WMD to
        terrorist groups which had never occurred before in
        Saddam's regime but now that he is toast don't be surprised
        if as his last act of defiance he does precisely that."
        http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/03/sp_iraq_wilson040303.htm
        \_ No wonder Bush went after his wife...
        \_ He's an interesting mix of brilliant policy analysis and standard
           State Department globalism and anti-American cynicism.  He'd
           probably have been a really good guy to have in office if the
           State Department hadn't destroyed his ability to see clearly.
           \_ Nazi's also believed their country could do no wrong..
              \_ Bing!  We have a Hitler reference on reply #2, could we
                 get a clean-up crew in here?  Thanks.
                 \_ Did I win?  I wrote the thing the Nazi posted replied to.
2003/10/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10399 Activity:nil
10/1    http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm
        30 years?  damn.
        \_ hell, if she's not as sexy as the Alias girl who cares?
           \_ no, she's hotter
              "slim, blonde ... In the photos in his office, she has the
              looks of a film star. 'She is really quite amazing,' Wilson
              said." Wash Post
        \_ 30 years?  What about 30 years?
           \_ Valerie Plame has been undercover for 3 decades
        \_ 3 decades != 30 years... 3 decades could be 14 years: 1989-2003
         \_ 3 decades!  damn!  (Oh and given that she trained someone who
            quit in 1989 and was in the service for 4 years I suspect more
            than 14, but the whole Plame is 40 thing makes much more than
            18 years seem unlikely.)
        \_ another interesting perspective:
          http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml
          \_ jesus. novak's own column makes him look like an utter idiot.
             \_ I agree.  For one, he claims the Washington Post report about
                leaking the wife's name as "simply untrue" without providing
                any evidence.  Second, when the CIA rep asked not to publish
                her name, and said it would cause "difficulties" if it were,
                what does Novak expect?  For the CIA rep to say, "She's
                covert, so you can't report her name".
                \_ The CIA should just execute Novak.
2003/10/1 [Computer/SW/P2P] UID:10400 Activity:nil
10/1    http://wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,60650,00.html
        Chuck D and LL Cool J face off about file sharing.  Guess the
        shil, win a teddy bear!
        \_ they both sound like utter morons
           \_ this is some sort of surprise coming from guys who call
              themselves "Chuck D" and "LL Cool J"?  think about it.
2003/10/1 [Computer/SW/Editors, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:10401 Activity:nil
10/1    sex.exe, can't get rid of it, can't find it on hd. how to get rid of?
        \_ Install woman.exe.
        \_ format, reinstall OS
        \_ Isn't that the NullSoft text editor?  Pretty harmless, isn't it?
           \_ it's more likely some virus, worm, or bomb.
              \_ http://www.nullsoft.com/free/sex
                 \_ foolish mortal.  nothing says his binary is the one from
                    your url.  also nothing says the binary at your url isn't
                    infected from another source or isn't a v/w/b also.  for
                    example, go check out the software versions the zonelabs
                    guys are using.  they're a software security outfit that
                    doesn't keep their own servers up to date.  why would you
                    expect any better from guys who wrote a text editor?  trust
                    no one!  stay alert!  keep your laser handy!
2003/10/1 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/OS/VM] UID:10402 Activity:nil
10/1    I'm installing WinXP for the first time on a test box just to see it.
        I'm not even done with the basic install and it's already doing all
        this automated 'dont worry, ill make that really important decision
        for you, you dumbass consumer!' shit.  I'm getting shivers....
        I'm doing it inside a virtual-pc so at least it can't fuck up anything
        too much.  I hope.
        \_ I've been using XP pro for a while now;  as a game and just-doing-
           superficial-type-work-box (writing docs and browsing) it has been
           pretty decent.  I don't trust it with anything important (all my
           storage and security and whatnot is on a couple of FreeBSD boxes)
           so the relationship is a happy one.  -John
2003/10/1-2 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:10403 Activity:nil
10/1    I'm on solaris and trying to increase the number of open file descriptors
        my processes can have. I've used limit and ulimit under zsh and bash,
        respectively, to set these to say, 400. limit and ulimit -a apparently
        confirm these changes. But when I write a program to test this out,
        it still fails after the default of 256 open files. Any idea what I
        might be doing wrong? Thanks.
        \_ The number 256 should've clued you in on what's going on.
           \_ umm, duh. the question is why is it still at 256...
              \_ yes, and you apparently missed the boat by a mile. 256 is
              2^8. You're calling a clib function. Think about it. It's not
              that hard....
                 \_ umm, again, no. you're probably missing the boat by
                    several miles then. do you even know c? or perhaps you're
                    just way over my head, in which case you should explain
                    to mere mortals what gems can be found in your seemingly
                    idiotic comments.
                    \_ Each time a file is opened space is allocated for
                    a new file descriptor. The descriptors are in an array.
                    In order to find an empty slot in the descriptor array the
                    kernel has to traverse the list. During the early days of SunOS
                    this was found to be rather expensive. So instead a bit field was devised
                    in order to determine used and open descriptor slots.
                    And guess what they used for the bit field, a byte.
                    Since process info has to be stored in kernel memory,
                    this was seen as saving space, so each process had
                    an associated bit field for the descriptor array.
                    Hence the 256 limit.
                       \_ welcome to a new century. the default hard limit is
                          now 1024. see below, limit is 256 only for standard
                          library functions, and this is removed on 64 bit
                          solaris 7. go figure. and i did say solaris, not
                          old SunOS.
        \_ Solaris max is 256 for 32-bit apps. See rlim_fd_max in
           http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/816-0607/6m735r5ev?a=view
           \_ grr. well, that's not quite true. it turns out to be 256 for
              standard library calls, like fopen. you can do 1024 using open().
              unfortunately, python seems to use fopen.
2003/10/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:10404 Activity:nil
10/01   John's its-ugly-its-really-ugly link of the day:
        http://www.nylug.org/images/adler_images/linux_nylug_booth.jpg
        \_ Grow up. -alexf
           \_ Jealous?
              \_ Of what? The original poster's misanthropic tendencies? No,
                 not particularly. -alexf
                 \_ Misanthropic?  Hardly.  It's just a painful reality.
        \_ this makes me want to stop using linux
        \_ How come their lug gets an orangutan?
        \_ I don't get it.
           \_ Do you look like any of those guys?
        \_ ITS NERD HEAVEN!  YES!  THIS IS THE WAY TO NAB THE H0T CHIX!11
           L1UNX R0X Y0R S0X!  They all appear to come from the same very
           limited gene pool.
2003/10/1-3 [Industry/Jobs] UID:10405 Activity:low
10/1    http://www.taprootfoundation.org/about/index.shtml
        Has anyone here tried working with these guys? It sounds like a
        great idea in principle that is very difficult to pull off well in
        practice; I'm curious -- is it actually working?

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+,,,,,+,,,+::::::+++*#+.+@:@.**,+,:,,,,..,,:,.:*.,:+.,.:.,,,,,,,,,
+,,,,,+,,,::::::::::+*#*#:+*#+*,#,,,.,,:,.,.,,+:..+,*,,.,,,,,,,,,,
:,,,,,:,,.::::::::::+:+*+.+@*:##+*++*,,,,,,.,,:.,++,,.,..,,,,,,,,,
:,,,,,:,#::::::::::::::++::,**.@.W##..,,,.,:,,:.*..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
:,,,,..,,,+:::::::.:::::::++::++#:@.:+:.+,+,*.#::..,:,,,,,,,,,,,,,
:.,,,,.,*:,:::........:::::::++**+++**+**+,.+,,,*,,..,,,,,,,,,,,,,
:.,,,,:,,,..,+::......:.:::::++++++++++*,,,,,,,,.,+,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
\_ Truly a great end to a great Day In the Life of the motd.
\_ Oh yeah?  How about:

                         8888  8888888
                  888888888888888888888888
               8888:::8888888888888888888888888
             8888::::::8888888888888888888888888888
            88::::::::888:::8888888888888888888888888
          88888888::::8:::::::::::88888888888888888888
        888 8::888888::::::::::::::::::88888888888   888
           88::::88888888::::m::::::::::88888888888    8
         888888888888888888:M:::::::::::8888888888888
        88888888888888888888::::::::::::M88888888888888
        8888888888888888888888:::::::::M8888888888888888
         8888888888888888888888:::::::M888888888888888888
        8888888888888888::88888::::::M88888888888888888888
      88888888888888888:::88888:::::M888888888888888   8888
     88888888888888888:::88888::::M::;o*M*o;888888888    88
    88888888888888888:::8888:::::M:::::::::::88888888    8
   88888888888888888::::88::::::M:;:::::::::::888888888
  8888888888888888888:::8::::::M::aAa::::::::M8888888888       8
  88   8888888888::88::::8::::M:::::::::::::888888888888888 8888
 88  88888888888:::8:::::::::M::::::::::;::88:88888888888888888
 8  8888888888888:::::::::::M::"@@@@@@@"::::8w8888888888888888
  88888888888:888::::::::::M:::::"@a@":::::M8i888888888888888
 8888888888::::88:::::::::M88:::::::::::::M88z88888888888888888
8888888888:::::8:::::::::M88888:::::::::MM888!888888888888888888
888888888:::::8:::::::::M8888888MAmmmAMVMM888*88888888   88888888
888888 M:::::::::::::::M888888888:::::::MM88888888888888   8888888
8888   M::::::::::::::M88888888888::::::MM888888888888888    88888
 888   M:::::::::::::M8888888888888M:::::mM888888888888888    8888
  888  M::::::::::::M8888:888888888888::::m::Mm88888 888888   8888
   88  M::::::::::::8888:88888888888888888::::::Mm8   88888   888
   88  M::::::::::8888M::88888::888888888888:::::::Mm88888    88
   8   MM::::::::8888M:::8888:::::888888888888::::::::Mm8     4
       8M:::::::8888M:::::888:::::::88:::8888888::::::::Mm    2
      88MM:::::8888M:::::::88::::::::8:::::888888:::M:::::M
     8888M:::::888MM::::::::8:::::::::::M::::8888::::M::::M
    88888M:::::88:M::::::::::8:::::::::::M:::8888::::::M::M
   88 888MM:::888:M:::::::::::::::::::::::M:8888:::::::::M:
   8 88888M:::88::M:::::::::::::::::::::::MM:88::::::::::::M
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Go Do Your Homework. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
     888    MM:::::::MMM::::::::::::::::MM:::MM:::::::::::::::M
      88     M::::::::MMMM:::::::::::MMMM:::::MM::::::::::::MM
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        88    MM::::::::::::MMMMMMM::::::::::::::MMMMMMMMMM
         88   8MM::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::MMMMMM
          8   88MM::::::::::::::::::::::M:::M::::::::MM
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           88 8888888M:::::::::MMM::::::::::::::M:::M
           8  888888 M:::::::MM:::::::::::::::::M:::M:
              888888 M::::::M:::::::::::::::::::M:::MM
             888888  M:::::M::::::::::::::::::::::::M:M
             888888  M:::::M:::::::::@::::::::::::::M::M
             88888   M::::::::::::::@@:::::::::::::::M::M
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           88888   M:::::::::::::::@@::::::::::::::::::M::M
          88888   M:::::m::::::::::@::::::::::Mm:::::::M:::M
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         8888   M:::::M:::::::::::::::::::::::MMM::::::::M:::M
        888    M:::::Mm::::::::::::::::::::::MMM:::::::::M::::M
      8888    MM::::Mm:::::::::::::::::::::MMMM:::::::::m::m:::M
     888      M:::::M::::::::::::::::::::MMM::::::::::::M::mm:::M
  8888       MM:::::::::::::::::::::::::MM:::::::::::::mM::MM:::M:
             M:::::::::::::::::::::::::M:::::::::::::::mM::MM:::Mm
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           MM:::::::::M:::::::::::::M:::::::::::::::::::::M:M:::MM
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Weren't you supposed to do XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX your homework? XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
           M:::::::::::::::::::M::::::::::::::::::::::::::MMM
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2003/10/1 [Uncategorized] UID:10406 Activity:nil
10/01   Damn, why are you dredging up shit from the archives?  What you did
        was repost a slim part of a longer section of the motd out of context.
        You added nothing to it.  If you want to troll at least be original.
2003/10/1-3 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10407 Activity:kinda low
10/1    Informal CSUA voting.  Please vote only once (don't be a hozer).
        Recall Davis
        Yes: .................................................................
             .................................................................
             .................
        No: ...........
             \_ I like how the number of No votes changed from 5 to 9 votes
                in the space of two minutes ... hoser.
                \_ What about the number of yes votes?  Sheesh...Besides,
                   saying "don't be a hoser" on the motd is like asking
                   people to spare the air by not breathing for a few days.
                   \_ The No votes showed the ballot stuffing first.  The
                      Yes votes only appeared after I pointed this out.
                      I feel like a moron.
                      \_ trust your feelings.
                \_ Yo, it's a motd poll.  Whatever.  That's to both of you.
        Bustmante: .......
        Camejo: .
        Schwarzenegger: ......
        Tom: ...
        georgy@soda: ...
        !psb: ..
        \_ does the fact that Arnie is an idiot, knows nothing of government,
           and refuses to give any specifics of what he will do not bother you?
           \_ your opinion doesn't bother me at all but I'm voting for TM
              because his views most closely match my own on topics important
              to me that the governor has some control over.  I hope that
              properly answered your loaded & rhetorical question.
              \_ well if you're voting for TM I wasn't talking to you.
                 \_ you weren't talking to anyone.  it was rhetorical.
           \_ According to the L.A. Times poll, everyone knows he has
              considerably less experience than the mainstream candidates,
              but he ranks at the top in leadership.  I think of Arnie as
              someone who wasn't in the club when he got to America, but
              leveraged his musclebuilding into acting, then into small
              community contributions, running businesses, and then ending
              up governor of California.  I think people approve of this.
              Implicitly, they do not consider him an idiot.  As for not
              giving specifics, people are motivated primarily by "kick
              the bums out" and avoiding "business as usual".  They are
              satisfied as well when he says it will be "Governor Arnold,
              not Governor Wilson".  By the way, someone is overwriting
              posts like mad (not just mine).
              \_ Ok. Well, I'll actually vote No on recall and Yes on Arnie.
                 Just because I hate Bustamante.
                 \_ Just curious, why do you hate him?  Because he's Mexican?
                    \_ Why do you automatically assume race is an issue?
                    \_ Bustamante is a twink. He also has zero charisma.
                    \_ Bustamente seems more oily than Davis.  As much as
                       Davis has dissed him, he seemed to salivate over the
                       revenge aspect of running against Davis and leading
                       in the polls, more than wanting to save CA.
                       \_ Wowwee, now that's what I call an informed opinion.
                          \_ Well, if you want something more hard, he's
                             a part of the Democratic establishment that
                             increased spending to a level where we're in
                             the hole that we are now.  They shouldn't be
                             rewarded by replacing one Democrat for another.
                             In any case, do you disagree with my earlier
                             characterization?  Doesn't it just SEEM right?
                             \_ I firmly disagree.  Its fairly obvious that
                                your prejudice against anything Democratic
                                is clouding your judgement.  You need to
                                relax.
                                \_ actually, I am a Democrat.  They just
                                   overspent by way too much.  Bustamante
                                   and Davis should not be representing this
                                   party, and those politicians may have
                                   gotten too full of themselves, what
                                   with the "conservative" stupidity going
                                   on in the rest of the country.
                                   \_ I think our idiotic initiative system,
                                      the special interests that have ruined it,
                                      and the stupid California voters that
                                      passed the budget restrictions that
                                      lock up 2/3rds in the money in this
                                      state are the real villians.  Not to
                                      mention Enron and the other energy
                                      companies that screwed us.  I don't know
                                      why I bring this up though, because it
                                      gets deleted every time I do.
                                      \_ Wah!  I write to a dynamic file that
                                         hundreds have access to and my posts
                                         are so brilliant it must be that i'm
                                         being silenced! its a VRWC i tell ya!
                                      \_ It still doesn't change the fact
                                         that Davis brought up the deficit
                                         after he got elected, and attacked
                                         Riordan so he could face Simon.
                                         He's a coward.
                                         \_ I love this complaint.  It's as if
                                            no one had the opportunity to say
                                            "We're in trouble on the budget"
                                            other than Davis.  Was he doing the
                                            numbers in his closet?
                                         \_ And how is replacing him with
                                            someone with zero political
                                            experience and a cabal of
                                            Pete Wilson advisors going
                                            to solve our problems?
                                            \_ It sends a message, one.
                                               Two, Arnie's governance would
                                               be one of delegating
                                               responsibilities.  It really
                                               doesn't work in Dubya's
                                               administration, but I think
                                               it might work better on the
                                               state level.  He's a different
                                               person than Ventura, very
                                               charismatic, and it might just
                                               work.
                                               \_ right, Ventura's politics
                                                  were/are way better.
                                               \_ I can't see what facts you
                                                  are basing number 1 or number
                                                  2 on, so I guess I'll just
                                                  have to think that you're
                                                  going on some sort of faith
                                                  in Arnold's powers.  Fair
                                                  enough.  I for one am
                                                  concerned about a government
                                                  of ex-Wilson cronies, as
                                                  Wilson was a terrible
                                                  governor.  I also think
                                                  Arnold's effectiveness is
                                                  going to be questionable
                                                  given a firmly Democratic
                                                  legislature and voting public,
                                                  not to mention the strangeness
                                                  of the budget process given
                                                  that 2/3rd voting requirement
                                                  and all the spending mandates.
                                                  I also think he's going to
                                                  be subject to a recall of his
                                                  own, and I'm very afraid
                                                  given the state of California
                                                  politics that we will soon
                                                  be subjected to an endless
                                                  series of tit for tat recalls.
                                                  _/
                                It's not that I think Arnold will do a better
                                job, but he hasn't demonstrated the cowardice
                                that Davis has (see earlier post).  Arnold
                                has the promise of doing an adequate job.
                                You're all about, "Who's likely to do the
                                best job?" which is entirely valid.  I'm
                                all about, "Davis showed he was a coward,
                                boot him.  I don't want my vote indicating
                                I condone his practices" which to me,
                                trumps that.
                                \_ I wouldn't call it cowardice.  Just plain
                                   brutal cynicism.  Davis is a bastard.
                                \_ Fair enough, thanks for the reasonable
                                   debate (on the motd no less!).  I guess
                                   we'll just have to see how it all turns out,
                                   as Governor Arnold looks sort of
                                   inevitable at this point.  For me, this
                                   is yet another reason to consider moving
                                   out of Cali (*sniff* *sniff*).
                                \_ Arnold has demonstrated even more cowardice!
                                   He refused to debate Davis or the other
                                   candidates except that one scripted thing.
                                   He also refuses to say anything specific,
                                   for fear of criticism.
                                   \_ But you see, the Democrats have already
                                      had their chance.  Arnold just had to
                                      show in the first debate that he
                                      wouldn't go psycho, and he didn't.  That
                                      means I'm going to vote for him.
                                      I certainly don't blame your logic, since
                                      the L.A. Times uses it.
                                      \_ this is the thread that doesn't end
                                          it just goes on and on my friend
                                          some people started trolling it
                                          not knowing what it was
                                          and they just kept on trolling it
                                          forever just because
                                          this is the thread that never
                                          ends, it just goes on and on my
                                          friend.
                    \_ I don't feel like writing an essay about the man.
                       Suffice it to say, I disagree with his plans, I feel
                       that he doesn't represent my interests, and I have a
                       personal distaste for him based on what I've seen of
                       what he says and how he operates. The "oily" description
                       sums it up as much as anything.
        \_ I predict that Arnold will win and the first thing he will have
           to do is raise taxes, pissing off the Republicans to no end. -ausman
           \_ Shrug.  I predict you're wrong.  (heh)
2003/10/1-3 [Industry/Jobs] UID:29551 Activity:nil
10/01   http://www.taprootfoundation.org/about/index.shtml
        Has anyone here tried working with these guys? It sounds like a
        great idea in principle that is very difficult to pull off well in
        practice; I'm curious -- is it actually working?
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:October:01 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>