Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:September:17 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2003/9/17 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:10218 Activity:nil
9/16    I manage the Engineering Department at a software company in
        Southern California. We have openings for several senior level
        developers. C/C++ required, MFC and Qt experience a plus. Send
        resumes to - I'll be out of town this
        week and doing call backs next week based on the resumes I get.
        \_ There is no such thing as C/C++.  Pick one or pick both.
           \_ C/C++ means you should know one or both. -!op
           \_ this guy never even has seen a job posting
              \_ I have.  It annoys me when people say "C/C++" as if they're
                 the same thing.  It's marketing-speak.
                 \_ No, you're being a nerd.  The languages are close enough
                    to not matter.  They want someone with C/C++ as opposed to
                    LISP or Fortran.  You'd prefer you had 15+ years of C and
                    no C++ and didn't get a call because they hired someone
                    with no C and 2 years of C++?  *That* would be stupid on
                    their part.
                    \_ c and c++ are, to program in, not very close at all.
                       a more technical person probably wouldn't be caught dead
                       saying 'c/c++', but i agree it's kind of silly to
                       belabor this point.
                       \_ It's a job posting.  The candidate is supposed to be
                          smart enough to be able to read a job posting without
                          flipping out.  Anyone bothered by a C/C++ listing so
                          much is way too anal to work in most places.  A job
                          posting is just a vague wish list of 'stuff' they
                          think might be nice for someone to know to some
                          degree or another so candidates can self-disqualify.
                          Stupid is when some marketing guy keeps applying to
                          all of the perl and java jobs at my company.  Zero
                          programming experience and not much marketing but is
                          applying for 3-5+ year experience required jobs.
                          *That* is stupid.  When we did open a marketing job
                          he wasn't considered due to previous stupidity.
                    \_ Yes, it would be stupid on their part, and it's
                       irrelevant.  If they don't care if it's C or C++, then
                       just say, "C and/or C++".  Is that so hard?  And the
                       languages aren't /that/ close; if you're writing C++
                       code that looks like C... well... <shudder>
                       \_ You're still being nerdy.  It's close enough for
                          most places and a lot of people who know one also
                          know the other.  "C/C++" is just shorthand for your
                          "C and/or C++".  Just chill and put down the Strunk
                          and White.  I'm glad to see people posting real jobs
                          here.  You shouldn't abuse them for it.  Don't bite
                          the hand.
                       \_ So if there's another job posting saying
                          "Assembly/C required", are you going to complain that
                          there's no such thing as Assembly/C too?  If you
                          think that manager is silly, don't apply.  I don't
                          complain about C/C++.  I only complained about job
                          postings saying "10yrs of NT programming required"
                          back in 1998.
        \_ Qt = cutie?
           \_ it's from a company called trolltech. you'd like it, obviously
              \_ I don't think that's trolling, just a newbie
2003/9/17 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes, Academia/GradSchool, Industry/Jobs] UID:10219 Activity:nil
9/16    New Graduate Salary Survey Quiz.  What was your starting salary if
        you've graduated in the last two years with a CS or EECS degree?
         < 35K:
        60-65K: .
                \_ 2 years ago, didn't graduate.
        65-70K: .
                \_ and my company is hiring if anyone is interested
                   \_ which company?
                      \_ hm, it seems we have a ucla ee/cs guy problem
         > 70K: .
        still looking for a job: .
2003/9/17 [Industry/Jobs, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:10220 Activity:nil
9/16    Related to the evaluation question below, how do you answer the
        interview question "what are your weaknesses"? I've gotten that
        from two different guys at the same company before and it was kinda
        painful because they really, really pushed deep on that question.
        \_ Do like they did on The Simpsons. "I'm a workaholic."
        \_ "My weakness is I refuse to work with doofuses who ask
           lame-ass questions like 'what are your weaknesses'?"
        \_ "I survived UC Berkeley where we kill the weak and eat their still
            beating hearts!  I have no weaknesses, little man!  What pathetic
            'school' did *you* go to?"  It doesn't really matter what you say.
            You're dealing with some doofus and every answer can be turned
            into the wrong answer.  You can say something like, "well my
            girlfriend sometimes gets upset that I'm such a take-charge
            gung-ho kinda guy when we make plans but she always has fun!"
            All answers are stupid, just try to avoid giving an axe-murderer
            \_ These were the two highest-ranking tech godfathers at this co.
               If you had said that "take charge" answer they'd scoff and
               make you give a *real* weakness. Oh well, fuck 'em I guess.
               One of them spent about half the interview on that question,
               and the rest questioning my "passion for engineering" and why
               I'm an engineer etc... unfortunately rather close to home tho.
               \_ I'm 28 and a software engineer, and I want to work with
                  "good" people more than get a salary.  The fact that they're
                  asking these meta-questions might suggest that they're
                  concerned with what your life goals and attitudes are,
                  have you figured it out.  It's just a job, but you
                  spend half your life at work, so I can see why.
                  \_ No, it means the interviewers are lazy and/or
                     inexperienced.  However, your answer is correct.  -John
               \_ I've had the exact same thing happen to me when I gave some
                  clever variation on the 'work too hard' line.  So I told him
                  I'm smart and have low tolerance for people who are
                  intentionally stupid.  Not stupid people, but people who
                  play dumb for political or other reasons.  I got an offer,
                  but I don't think that had anything to do with it.  I think
                  he was just filling time and feeling self important.
                  \_ yeah. btw i needed *3* weaknesses. well, it actually
                     taught me how to be better prepared for interviews.
                     it's all about attitude.
                     \_ 3?  That's fucking crazy.  "Gee, I'm not that flawed".
                     \_ a more specific question would have been
                        "tell me 3 things your co-workers hate about you"
        \_ the standard answer is: "I work too hard...". not inspiring or
           original, but it works. if yer just outta skewl, mention that
           you spent all yer time in the computer lab. don't mention the
           B.O. problem.
        \_ a good manager (read, the kind of manageryou want to work with)
           knows that different people are happier doing different things.
           Questions like this aren't ment to be ducked.  What they are trying
           to get at is "What sort of stuff do you do poorly?  What sort of
           stuff do you just not enjoy doing?"  Yeah saying something like
           "I goof off half the day and get everything done late" is stupid
           but a real answer like "when I'm working on a project with a bad
           debugging environment my productivity drops really bad" would,
           say let them know you might do better at being a server coding
           person that working with some proprierty scripting system that
           doesn't have real tools.  They want people, not pretend workaholics
           who will leave in disgust six months later because they treated
           management as roadblocks to be worked around, and somehow, gee,
           that made work a nightmare.
           \_ This is probably true but I've never had the pleasure of working
              with a "good" manager. Then again, I'm in civil engineering, not
              coding. The consensus among those I've talked to is that the
              weakness question is the interviewer getting in an early stab at
              establishing pecking order. They, after all, will never have to
              answer such a ridiculous question of themselves from you. If you
              want the job, have your canned answer ready and don't be worried
              that it's not exactly honest. They're not looking for honesty.
              They're looking for you to subvert your ego for the "team". You
              may, however, want to consider whether this is the sort of
              situation where you'd like to work, if you have a choice in the
              matter. In the current times, nobody in my business really has
              much choice.
              \_ I had a good manager once.  I can barely remember what it was
                 like....  Maybe we had the same one since I think there's only
                 about 3 out there.
2003/9/17 [Finance/Banking, Recreation/Shopping, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:10221 Activity:nil
9/16    What's the deal with  These days, half of any given order
        arrives damaged (scuffs/black marks on the book, bent covers, mashed
        corners, etc.)  If I'd wanted my books pre-damaged, I'd have gone
        shopping at Barnes & Noble!
        \_ I've orders books and other stuff from them recently, never a
           problem. They will accept returns and satisfy the customer.
           \_ I had an excellent experience regarding this.  My book cover
              was bent, and they replaced it and paid for the shipping.
              \_ yeah, amazon is much better customer service wise than say,
        (where the 'half' stands for half-witted customer
                 service, half-witted buyers, and half-witted sellers; on
                 the other hand, ebayers seem much more responsible
                 on the whole.)
           \_ oh yeah, i forgot, amazon did ship me a 10,000 Maniacs
              CD with a damaged case(CD was fine), but they included
              a new CD-case and a note saying "we noticed damage and
              have included a new case". The "damage" was a scratch on
              the CD-case.
        \_ I've seen a version of their shrink-wrap packaging that
           bends up the corners of soft-covered books. A supid design.
           They gave me a $5 discount on a slightly damaged order.
2003/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:10222 Activity:nil
9/16    New california drivers license
        \_ throw in a joke about drunken indians and black people with big
           lips chowing down on the watermellon and fried chicken and you
           have comedy gold there.
        \_ Glad to see racism no longer exists.
        \_ If only it really said "illegal alien" in the corner.  The new
           "legal driving for illegal aliens" license will look like everyone
           else's.  I'm still trying to figure out why someone who is here
           illegally and already driving would feel the need to register with
           the state and get a driver's license.  And if they fail will they
           stop driving?
           \_ They are probably dying to pay for insurance, too. The
              reality is that they want them (if they want them) to use as
              ID, which is precisely why I oppose giving DL to them.
              \_ They shouldn't even be here.  That's the whole "illegal" part
                 of "illegal" alien.
        \_ let's all email this terry meiners fellow and let him know how
           much of an ignorant racist asshole he is. I just did. that thing
           is just ridiculous.
           \_ go for it.  I can't wait to see his "these low grade witless
              humorless morons sent me hate mail" page.
               \_ ahh the "can't they take a joke" defense!  A classic!
              \_ Should be "... morons who support *illegal* aliens ...".
        \_ there are a lot of illegal aliens from europe, canada, and asia,
           but I guess that's ok with most of you.
           \_ not at all.  why would you think that?  illegal is illegal.  why
              is that so hard for you to understand?
2003/9/17 [Computer/Networking] UID:10223 Activity:nil
9/16    Related to wireless security-- do wireless routers with firewalls
        consider wireless traffic to be coming from the WAN or LAN?
        \_ LAN. It's not a firewall against wireless attack.
        \_ Is this a cheap linksys/dlink/netgear router? If so, wireless
           == lan. If it is a high-end cisco router with a wireless module
           then the answer is it depends on how you configure the routing.
2003/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:10224 Activity:nil
9/16    Has anybody bought an eMac?  I'm looking for a low-priced machine
        for my mother.  Was the swivel stand worth $60?
2003/9/17-20 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:10225 Activity:nil 74%like:10214
9/16    OpenSSH 3.7.1 released (fixes a buffer mgmt error):
        [ updated to 3.7.1 since 3.7 had a bug ]

emacs user was here
        \_ I had a beta version of 097b ssl installed so I got the 4/10/03
           version and the compile and install went clean but the ssh client
           still says its using the old version....  I then recompiled and
           installed ssh and same thing.  I've tried a few other things but
           nothing works.  Any hints?  There's no rpm for my system and
           the compile isn't the issue anyway.  Thanks!
                \_ Have you killed and restarted sshd?  Do you know where
                   your make install is putting things--is it the same place
                   your startup scripts are running them from?  -John
                   \_ ssh -v shows the old openssl version.  It has nothing
                      to do with sshd.  It's getting it from
                      /usr/lib/ according to ktrace.  I don't
                      see where the openssl install is supposed to replace or
                      install a newer version of this file.
                        \_ If you build openssl from src it puts the libs
                           in /usr/local/ssl/lib or /usr/local/lib (depends
                           on your os). If you want your new version to
                           override the system installed default, then just
                           rename the version in /usr/lib and make a symlink
                           to the new version (provided you can build a .so
                           on your arch). If you are using *BSD you should
                           probably fetch the latest version of /usr/src/lib
                           and rebuild that way.
        \_ Arrr!
           \_ Avast!
2003/9/17 [Computer/HW/Memory] UID:10226 Activity:high
9/16    I got a used (free) computer, but I've realized that it locks up.
        I've swapped out the RAM, Mobo, power supply and disk. It still
        crashes.  (isn't really free, huh). The last time it was a seg
        fault in the /etc/init.d/umountfs while shutting down. The errors
        seems to be random, but possibly occur slightly more in the AM
        wee-hours. So the last thing to swap out is the CPU.  It's an
        Athlon ~1GHz. Are these symptoms typical for a bad CPU?
        \_ Someone probably tried an overclock and failed.  Get what you pay
           for.  Sounds like you bought a new computer in pieces and wasted
           a lot of time.
        \_ I used to think all memory are the same. As long as you get the
           right one with the right cycle (e.g. 2700/3200/etc) then it will
           work. WRONG. I bought my GigaByte motherboard with a generic
           RAM and nothing worked. Tried everything. Changed CPU, changed
           grafx card, even changed MB and nothing worked. Went back to
           Frys, and had them try out the IDENTICAL RAM but this time using
           Kingston and other more expensive RAM, and voila, it worked.
           Did some research on the WEB and found out that 1) some MBs are
           very RAM sensitive and 2) despite what I experienced in the past
           10 years, NOT ALL RAM ARE THE SAME!!!!
           \_ His mb is older.  That's not as big a deal on the pc100 or what
              ever is in there.  His cpu is an over-overclock victim.
              \_ The original mobo is a Spacewalker AK12 wit PC133 ram, but
                 for the replacement, I bought an Asus A7V8X-X and some
                 high-quality PC2700 DDR SDRAM from central computer. -op
2003/9/17 [Computer/Rants, Computer/SW/Security] UID:10227 Activity:nil
9/16    Shutterfly on  Add this to my list of a few days
        ago about why *not* to use them.
        \_ Who cares if Best Buy is or isn't using them?  It's a good
           service.  -tom
           \_ Because they're a dotcom with no parent company, too many staff,
              high prices and one less big customer.  I just hope you keep an
              original of all your pictures and copies of everything your
              friends have shared with you.  When they go, they're going to
              go POP! really fast.
        \_ I ended up going with Yeah, it's a pay service ($23/yr),
           but it had all the features I wanted in an attractive package.
2003/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:10228 Activity:nil
9/16    Need one of these for San Francisco with parking issues and all:
2003/9/17 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:10229 Activity:high
9/16    To use SpamAssassin do I only need a .procmailrc, or do I need
        something in my .forward also?  I looked at ~danh/.procmailrc.
        What do I put at the end if I want to deliver locally to my
        soda account?  Thanks!
        \_ You don't need a .forward on soda. If sendmail sees a
           ~/.procmailrc it invokes procmail automatically. If you
           want to deliver to ~/Mail/inbox or something like that
           then the following should work:
           If you want to deliver to a mh folder try something like:
                   :0 w: $HOME/Mail/inbox/.lck
                   | /usr/local/lib/mh/rcvstore +inbox
           \_ I want to put the spam in one file and have everything else
              written back to the mail spool.  Can you help me with that? -OP
        \_ man spam
           \_ $ man spam
        \_ man spam                                     \_ man spam
              No manual entry for spam
              (What is your MANPATH set to?)
              \_ just unset MANPATH
              \_ I have no MANPATH set, but the file is here:  "man -w spam"
                 /csua/man/cat1/spam.1.gz (source: /csua/man/man1/spam.1)
                 \_ The perms are wrong:
        \_ man spam                                     \_ man spam
           \_ No manual entry for spam
        -rw-------  1 brett  contrib  1404 May 24 17:38 /csua/man/man1/spam.1
              \_ sorry about that. try it now. -brett
2003/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:10230 Activity:nil
9/17    Mary Carey has no breast implants.
        \_ I did not have sexual relations with that woman
           \_ It's just that someone said she's a "Pr0n0 princess with fake
              tits" yesterday.
2003/9/17-18 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:10231 Activity:nil
9/16    I have a perl script that forks off children who do some
        IO-bound work and then print a result to stdout.  Each child
        locks the STDOUT filehandle like this
                flock(STDOUT, LOCK_EX);
                flock(STDOUT, LOCK_UN);
        but I still get child A's output mixed in with child B's.  What am
        I doing wrong?
        \_ I recall something in the perl book (I have 1st ed) about switching
           between filehandles for output.  They give some example code.  Sorry
           I can't be more helpful.
           \_ thanks, I put in some "|| die" messages and I got
              "Operation not permitted."  I switched to using an actual
              file and that seems to work.
2003/9/17-20 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:10232 Activity:nil
9/16    For those of your who are running sendmail 8.12.9 there is
        a new exploit:
        Patch for 8.12.9:
        Version 8.12.10:
        \_ I'm going to just stop using email, stop logging in, stop using a
           browser, and go back to ftp, gopher, and telnet when it was safe
           to be on the net.  What's the last gopher or telnet exploit you've
           heard of?
           \_ tcpdump
              \_ I'm not on your network.  I'm switching to telnet for
                 everything.  Anyway, no one is going to be looking for the
                 clear text wheat among the crypto chaff so I'm safe.
                 \_ tcpdump tcp port telnet
                    If all of your systems are on the same switch and
                    vlan you are probably okay, otherwise I'd be careful.
                    BTW, its not like telnetd and inetd (or xinetd) are
                    exploit free.
        \_ Arrr!
           \_ Avast!
2003/9/17-18 [Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/Security] UID:10233 Activity:nil
9/16    What's the cheapest internet access to be had in (west) Berkeley?
        It's for my sister, a student... and I don't think piggybacking
        onto someone's wireless is an option.  Speed isn't important.
        \_ Get dialup for $8 a month.
           \_ Who has dial-up for $8 a month?
              \_ i have dialup for $6.95 a month.
        \_ NetZero.  The ads are free too...
           \_Netzero isn't free anymore.
        \_ I haven't used it, but the last time I was looking, I got a couple
           reccomendations to $6/mo and supposedly good
           service (can't vouch for this, apple-fan(atic) roommate went
           and signed up for their partner earthlink)
2003/9/17-18 [Computer/SW/Compilers] UID:10234 Activity:nil
9/17    For this snipet of code:
        for (i = 0; i < 3; i++) {
            printf("\n\n0x%x %d", ptr++, *ptr);
        Is there anything machine dependent about the evaluation of ptr++?
        I tried this on sparc/solaris and *ptr prints out the value AFTER
        the ++ increment.  But on a MIPS CPU, *ptr evaluates to before the
        ++.  WTF?
        \_ wtf is that you should learn c better. the order of evaluation
           of arguments is implementation-dependent, so a compiler
           is free to do whatever.
           \_ And this is the winner.  The comma operator evaluates left to
              right (as in: (a=b, ++b) works just fine).  However functions
              can evaluate their arguments in any order.  I don't understand the
              need for people to do this anyway.  Add the '++ptr' on its own
              \_ |>|_||>3!!  7|-|475 4|\| 3><7R4 |_i|\|3 0F <0|>3!!!!1!!
                 R34|_ |-|4X0R5 |/\|R173 5|\/|4|_|_ <0|>3!!!!1!|
                 \_ to match their 5|\/|4|_|_ heads (both of em)?
        \_ From the C9x Standard (section
                "The  grouping  of  an  expression  does  not
                 completely  determine  its  evaluation ... the
                 actual increment ... can occur at any time
                 between the previous sequence point and the
                 next sequence point"
           In your case, this means that ptr++ could occur
           either before or after printf(); and both would
           be completely valid (even in the same program).
        \_ this C or C++ code?
           \_ :-)
           \_ I won't apply for your job unless you tell us which one!
2003/9/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:10235 Activity:high
9/17    I refuse to accept the premise that surpluses are going to
        decline if I'm the president. I think they're going to
        increase, because my plan will increase productivity
        by cutting marginal rates. -GWB 12/7/1999
        \_ WOW, I can't believe that you are blaming the .com
           bubble and its side-effects on GWB.
           \_ Are you claiming that the .com bubble is what forced
              GWB and the Republican Congress to increase federal
              spending by 15%? Right....
                \_ Even if there was no spending increase the
                   surplus would have declined because of the
                   the .com bubble. I'm not saying that what
                   GWB is doing is right, I'm saying that the
                   state of the economy (and hence the budget)
                   is the way that it is due to circumstances
                   out of his control (he could no more have
                   stopped the .com bust than you or I).
                   The only way for GWB to restore the surplus
                   created by the .com bubble would be to cut
                   federal spending drastically, but this would
                   piss off the 'Republicans are Nazi's who
                   don't care about sick, infirm, aged and
                   poor people who aren't white christians'
                   crowd and they would go on national tv
                   crying about how if we just passed up one
                   sidewinder or a single aid pkg to Israel
                   we could have all the welfare and medicare
                   forever. Since Bush doesn't want that, we
                   are stuck with a budget that doesn't (and
                   cannot) properly reflect the economic
                   circumstatnces we find ourselves in.
                   GWB is doing is right, I'm saying that it
                   is largely out of his (or anyones) control.
                   \_ I notice you have avoided the question.
                      The tax cuts and spending increases have
                      done more to increase the deficit than the
        \_ Note: pre-9/11
                      revenue decreases since 2000.
                   \_ There was an article in the WSJ recently
                      plotting federal spending through the Clinton
                      and GWB years.  It was a very nice straight
                      line going down (about 15% total) during the
                      Clinton admin, and a very "nice" straight line
                      going up during GWB's admin, rolling back about
                      80% of what Clinton achieved.
           \_ ^GWB^Gray Davis
                   \_ Davis screwed the state over in the
                      "Energy Crisis". Sure the state was
                      hurt by the .com bubble, but the
                      major screw up was the "Energy Crisis".
                      \_ And sold out to how many different
        \_ Note: pre-9/11
2003/9/17-18 [Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:10236 Activity:nil
9/17    What's the catch with SBC "yahoo" DSL vs std SBC dsl?  I recall
        people where complaining about tracking or disclosure issues at
        the time that the yahoo label was added to it, was there a way
        around that?  Were there any other significant issues?  (I
        currently have std SBC DSL, and they're offering a much lower
        rate for the yahoo version). Thanks!  - mds
        \_ No catch, other than you have to sign up for a year to get the
           low rate. And it goes up after 6 months.
           \_ the letter actually says "$29.95 for the next 12 months"
        \_ Once you sign up for the 'yahoo' version, your yahoo ID is
           permanently linked to your DSL.  Ditch DSL or move out of the SBC's
           area and you lose your yahoo ID.
           \_ no, you dont have to use your regular Yahoo id, you can make
              up a new one just for the login session... and if you do use
              your regular yahoo id, when you cancel service, you do get
              to keep your yahoo id.
              \_ Tell that to a friend who just moved to Nevada and can't use
                 his old Yahoo id.
           \_ couldn't you just establish a new yahoo id for your DSL in
              addition to the one you've been using all along?
              \_ a hush falls over the room.....
              \_ yes, if you knew that ahead of time
              \_ be careful, i got charged $19 a month for an extra id
          \_ Yeah, this was the article I remember seeing, thanks!  They
             don't really offer any solutions beyond "switch providers",
             though.  I was wondering if people have done so, or stuck with
             sbc/yahoo and managed to opt out, ... whether it has been an
             issue, basically... Thanks! - mds
2003/9/17-18 [Recreation/Media] UID:10237 Activity:kinda low
9/17    Does anybody have a direct quote of FCC Chair Michael Powell
        talking about how media consolidation is necessary to "continue
        bringing Americans quality programming such as Friends, which
        costs $10M for every episode"?  He mentioned Jennifer Aniston's
        salary in particular, and it was on ABCNews last night.
        \_ Jennifer Aniston has breast implants.
           \_ URL please?
        \_ Well, each of the "Friends" makes $1 million+ per episode, so that
           explains the cost. It's sickening, but more sickening is that the
           dumb show makes so much in advertising revenue that they can get
           paid that much and still make a profit. I think advertisers have
           lost their minds.
           \_ It's believed that NBC takes a loss on Friends, but needs it
              as a flagship.  Hard to sell $10M in ads over 30 minutes.
              \_ reruns, syndication, selling crap like season dvds.  I bet
                 they make a ton off friends alone.
                 \_ NBC doesn't see the money from reruns and syndication
                    since all they own are the broadcast rights. Warner
                    Brothers Studios produces the show, so they're the ones
                    paying the salaries and they're the ones who make money
                    from syndication. Seinfeld was the same way.
                    \_ ok, whomever is paying 10million an episode is getting
                       it back.
           \_ $1M per episode?  It'll take me 10yrs to make $1M.  Without
              layoff, that is.
              \_ Well they're obviously adding more value to the economy than
                 you are.  Also, you only make $100k?  You should've gone to
                 acting school.  Berkeley was a waste of time if you wanted
                 to make millions.
                 \_ If you want to make real money you have to drop out
                    of Harvard. - BillG
                    \_ I agree, but not necessarily harvard. - LarryE
        \_ Someone please tell me that you understand the irony that op
           is going for.
           \_ Did.  Don't care.
        \_ Who actually watches Friends?
           \_ Who thinks we should provide government support to networks
              who brings us crap like Friends?
                \_ Probably the same people who say that the market
                   will provide.
2003/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:29540 Activity:nil
9/16    Top 3 weaknesses in job interview question:
                a chocoholic, a piece of chocolate will make me do anything
                will work for just food
                don't watch TV
2019/01/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:September:17 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>