7/22    Please rate the following languages by their usefulness for
        large programming projects and give your reasons:
        perl, python, ruby, tcl, urdu
        \_ Bangla >> Urdu
        \_ ocaml! -- ilyas
        \_ Don't use tcl.  tk was a cool idea but tcl is just cumbersome to
           use.  Perl and python depend on your own thoughts about what
           a project needs.  I personally would go with python but there are
           strong opinions on either side.  Never heard of ruby, so can't
           help you there.
           \_ and after looking at some ruby docs I have got to say it at
              least looks worth learning.
        \_ Tcl blows.
        \_ don't use tcl.  ruby = 1/2 python, 1/2 perl without perl's huge
           pre-made library at cpan.  perl vs python?  ask a priest.
        \_ Perl:   Extremely powerful and extremely ugly.  People have done
                   amazing things with it, but I find it aesthetically
                   unpalatable and do not use it.
           Tcl:    An excellent language to use to control your c programs
                   and allow users to write scripts.  Tcl's main advantages
                   are that the language structure is pretty simple and
                   compact making it easy to embed into c programs.  I've
                   used TinyTcl to control/test programs written for a DSP.
                   Tcl's main disadvantage is that the core language is
                   too simple and compact; you have to add on lots of extra
                   packages to get classes and other useful libraries.
           Python: A good language with lots of features like lambdas,
                   classes, and plenty of libraries built in.  It's not
                   quite as easy to embed into c programs as tcl, but not bad.
                   Python is my first choice mainly because of the many
                   high quality built-in and third party libraries.  The
                   language itself is also a nice compromise between the
                   simplicity of Tcl and the power of Perl while still
                   remaining quite readable. -emin
        \_ To add to the above comments, Python has reached the community
           critical mass any project like it needs to become useful.  wxPython
           is a joy to work in as well.

7/22    Regarding the grad school thread, thanks for all the replies.

7/22    Am I the only one, or does http://cnn.com's coverage of Uday/Qusay
        resemble the Starship Troopers patriotism commercials, especially
        when the soldiers find the Brain Bug, except this time it's U.S.
        troops surrounding the Hussein brothers and celebrating?
        \_ a lot of the propaganda for that film was inspired by
           nazi and italian fascist propaganda.  -sax
           \_ Of course, that all really misses the point of Heinlein's vision
              of the United States in the book...but since I haven't seen my
              copy in months or years, what would I know?
           \_ yeah, patriotism is a bad thing, down with gov't! if u hate
              it so much, leave. I hear Canada is looking for people
              \_ You go first, take your menorah with you.  We don't like
                 dying for your kind in the desert.
              \_ Dude...nationalism != patriotism.  Confusing the two is
                 stupid and often destructive to the values this country was
                 supposed to have been built upon.
                 \_ What exactly is nationalism?
              \_ yes, mindless patriotism is a bad thing.  every nation
                 in the world has patriotism and nationalism.  if being
                 and American just means blind faith in the stars and
                 stripes to you, it is you who should go move somewhere else.
        \_ "Remember:  Service Guarantees Citizenship"

7/22    http://homepage.mac.com/jmug/filechute/matrix.asf
        A low tech version of Matrix.  I haven't seen the movie so
        I don't know why it's very funny (according to a friend).
        \_ It's matrix ping pong, done at some variety show.  Everyone I've
           shown this to has laughed.  I've seen it a dozen times and it still
           cracks me up.

7/23    http://www.whichssl.org  interesting site comparing SSL certificate
        providers.  -John

7/23    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/clinton.iraq.sotu/index.html
        I didn't like him as President but he was sure good at the politics
        thing.  It isn't what he says here but what he doesn't say to his
        fellow party memebers: "you won't win 2004 on Iraq and WMD, it's the
        economy, stupid!"  He was and still is a brilliant politician.  Too
        bad he had no character or I might have switched parties.
        \_ Wait, so you would have loved to be on the winning team, even if
           you're not a Democrat at heart?  Who's the one with no character
           here?
           \_ Put away the axe, man.  I don't think your interpretation
              matches what the OP was trying to say.
           \_ Character != blindly stick with one political party.  That
              would be *your* world view.  Me?  I actually vote for the
              more desirable candidates without looking at the little (R)
              (D) or (I) after their name.  You can go stick your head in
              a pig or whack yourself in the head with your axe, your choice,
              because I believe it's ok to make choices in life.  --op
              \_ He plays with woman, that is his personal issue.
                Kennedy, FDR, T. Jefferson also played
                with women.  Politicians are politicians, we should judge
                them by their effectiveness and their ideological alignments,
                not their personal characters.  If you judge leader by their
                personal life, Hitler would be a godsend because he doesn't
                drink, doesn't play with women neither.

7/23    Time to unionize.
        \_ unionize what?  you need a job before you have a union.  maybe
           you missed the part where most unions are giving huge concessions
           and letting their members get laid off these days?
           \_ concessions are usually given when the business is in
              serious trouble (e.g. airlines, auto industry, etc). however,
              even in troubling times, union's can still negotiate pay scale,
              benefits, no outsourcing to india/china/russia, and basically
              keep americans employed. Given that there are still legions of
              computer-related workers gainfully employed, they could flex
              their clout and be a power to be reckoned with in the company
              board room and washington. when the economy is going good, most
              people buy the company line that no union is necessary, but now
              we are in bad times, and ideas like unionizing starts to gain
              some appeal. Imagine what could happen if workers organized
              at Microsoft, HP, Sun, and IBM.
                \_ the same thing that happened to all those organized
                   auto and steel workers in Detroit and Pittsburgh.  -tom
              \_ the same thing that happened to the organized auto and
                 steel workers in Detroit and Pittsburgh.  -tom
                 \_ the job losses in Detroit could have been much worse
                    without unions, and also protectionist measures brought
                    on by both unions and the auto companies.
              \_ I imagine they'd send 90% of those jobs to India and the
                 other 10% would take a pay cut to keep their jobs.  That's
                 what I imagine.  Hello?  Bad economy?  Worker glut!  The
                 airlines, auto, etc industries have to put up with unions
                 because they can't use Indian pilots and stewards or move
                 auto production offshore (due to tariffs and protectionism).
                 Your info job can be moved offshore quite easily because your
                 physical location isn't meaningful for most IT jobs and since
                 you're not dealing with the public directly (such as an
                 airline steward) the public doesn't know or care if you or
                 someone in Bombay wrote that line of code.  And obviously
                 the IT industry not only doesn't have protection like the
                 auto industry but through the H1b and L programs the Feds
                 are actually encouraging the use of non-citizens to destroy
                 the local job base in IT.  End the H1 and L programs and send
                 the current H1/L people home and you'll have several job
                 offers to choose from by the end of the same week.
                 \_ Exactly! these programs won't end on their own because
                    it directly benefits big business. The only way to change
                    this is through organizations like unions.
                    If companies continue to outsource their IP, they will
                    lose in the end. These foreign companies will in essence
                    take over since they have such low costs. The future
                    Bill Gates of india/china/russia should be very happy
                    about now.
                    \_ Unions won't stop H1b/L programs.  Only lobbying will.
                       Unions are anti-corporation.  Lobbying = change gov't
                       policy.  It's nice to see you understand the
                       underlying issue if not the correct solution.
        \_ anybody have a copy of that picture of Bill Gates getting the
           red dot in the forehead in India?  That epitomizes the future of
           the tech industry.
                \_ Wrong.  A lot of Indian tech outfits are moving production
                   to China/Vietnam.  First, 'production' is the key word. The
                   concept of an economic 'core' and 'periphery' assumes that
                   production of goods/services which have matured (see steel
                   and electronics) move to places that have better economies
                   of scale.  Note how production of TVs and toasters moved
                   out of the US--did that kill the US electronics industry?
                   Next, you'll never get rid of 'on-the-ground' services.
                   Bad example, but still somehow fitting, is Mango, a Spanish
                   clothing chain.  They produce in Spain, which is pricier
                   than, say, Malaysia, but lets them get new requirements to
                   market quicker.  The argument against this is that we're
                   talking about information rather than goods, but face time
                   will always be important.  As for unions, look at Germany
                   as a good case study for why unions in their current state
                   (note my wording) are a dead duck.  They kill the economy
                   by refusal to adapt or provide up-to-date services to
                   members, and are really only relevant to an ever-shrinking
                   pool of 'grunt' workers.  I realize this is an over-
                   generalization, but suggesting unionization as a solution
                   to the migration of tech jobs and mistreatment of tech
                   workers is kind of a dead end.  -John
                   \_ The German worker is the most productive and highly
                      paid in the world. He also works less than anyone
                      but the French. This is hardly an argument against
                      unionization. The German economy is not doing that
                      well, but the German standard of living is high and
                      there is almost no poverty. Germany's biggest problem
                      is due to their unwillingness to admit enough immigants
                      to overcome the demographic problem of the aging
                      population. Re: unions, ask a carpenter, plumber,
                      or electrician how unionization is working out for
                      them. System administration is alot more like these
                      skilled trades and would do well with a union. -ausman
                      \_ "The German worker" includes white collar & service
                         industry, which make up the majority of the German
                         workforce.  IGM and similar unions pushing for the
                         35-hour week represent a small, obsolete, and
                         shrinking percentage of the German workforce.  In
                         addition, the German economy is one of the slowest
                         growing in Europe, coasting on the success of the
                         last 50 years.  So no, my original point stands. -John
                      \_ The American worker is the world's most productive
                         by far, not the German.  Germany's economy is deep
                         in the shitter for many reasons such as population
                         aging, overly generous benefits and pension plans,
                         lack of immigration and excessively high taxes to
                         pay for everything.  It's a vicious cycle spiraling
                         ever downwards.  Their current batch of politicians
                         understands this and is trying to do something about
                         it without losing their own jobs.  The people are
                         screaming bloody murder of course.  I don't think
                         they'll recover until they've had a complete
                         economic collapse and all government services simply
                         cease.  Then they can invade France.  :-)
                            \_ THe unemployment rate is 25% in parts of Germany.
                               \_ They have also been saddled with the former
                                  East Germany situation. Anyway in my opinion,
                                  Europe's concern with standard of living is
                                  the way to go. What's wrong with tariffs and
                                  protectionism against slavedriver countries?
                         \_ You are simply wrong. Productity (output per
                            hour worked) is slightly higher all over Europe
                            than in the US. Do a google search and you will
                            see. Unemployment is high because of labor saving
                            techniques and the use of things like robots,
                            which Germany is #1 in the world. The only thing
                            America excels at is in the total number of hours
                            worked. To me, that is a good argument for
                            unions, not against them. I sure wish I had
                            six weeks of vacation a year. -ausman
                            \_ Jim, once again you are basing your statement
                               on a blanket definition of 'the German worker'.
                               This does not apply to the (unionized) blue
                               collar sector, and their unemployment cannot
                               simply be chalked up to mechanization.  A large
                               part of it is employers balking at the pension
                               burden imposed by government labor laws.  In
                               addition I should mention that compared to US
                               or UK organizational culture, my experience
                               with German white collar workers has shown a
                               markedly lesser bent towards efficiency.  -John
                            \_ I bow to John's superior knowledge and personal
                               experience at this point and simply say, "Yeah!
                               What John said!  That's right!"  --other person
                               \_ I was gonna let this thread die at that, but
                                  I came back from lunch and cannot resist it.
                                  Unemployment in West Germany is 8.1% and
                                  falling. Contrast that to the USA, which is
                                  at 6.4% and rising and has 1-2% of the labor
                                  pool in prison. I don't know what the
                                  problem with East Germany is. Got any
                                  urls to back up the blue collar vs.
                                  white collar productivity statement? I
                                  cannot find anything with casual googling
                                  and everything I have read in The Economist
                                  tends to indicate otherwise. -ausman
                                   \_The rate varies widely across the country.
                                     In Bavaria that may be the case, in Berlin
                                     its 25%+.  Maybe the German's I know are
                                     lying - what is your source.
        http://www.arbeitsamt.de/hst/services statistik/english/s002e.pdf _/
        I am pretty sure Berlin qualifies as "East Germany" -ausman
        \_ The problem isn't the unemployment.  The problem is the doomed
           pension system, coupled with an incredible income tax rate (>50%)
           and an overly bureaucratic system hostile to innovation.  -John
           and an overly bureaucratic system hostile to innovation.  And yes
           I do know a lot about the German economy because I live next door
           and follow the situation fairly closely.  Germany's economy is
           seriously broken, by their government's own tacit admission.  And
           yes, they're too gutless to fix it (which would mean some serious
           pain all around.)  -John
           \_ We can have a discussion about the effect of tax rates on
              long term economic growth another time. I think how
              government money is spent is more important than how much
              though. See Sweden vs US for an interesting case. All of
              the big economies have the pension problem and all will
              end up having to solve it the same way (raising the retirement
              ago) imo. Dunno about the bureaucracy, but in the past Germany
              has prided itself on its union/corporate co-operative culture.
              Now I really have to stop participating in this and get
              some work done! -ausman
              \_ Sweden?  Are you trying to say they don't have economic
                 problems similar to Germany (albeit on a smaller scale as
                 they are a less populous country)?  Sweden isn't exactly a
                 hotbed of innovation or growing economic power.  At least
                 Germany has something to recover back to if/after their
                 economy collapses.  Sweden?  Too small, no real industry,
                 insufficient base of people in the labor pool, and on and on
                 and on....  I'd bet 5 bucks on Germany doing better 20 years
                 from now than Sweden.  --other person

7/23    Motd poll!
        Is the overwhelming amount of hate and invective-filled spewing on the
        csua motd a reflection of:
        the breakdown of society in general:
        the repressed hostility of anti-social geeks:
        general boredom combined with arrested adolescence: .
        \_ I don't see any hate, maybe you are thin skinned?
           \_ Maybe you are blind as a bat?
           \_ i hate you, you piece of sh*t
           \_ you must not be jewish.
              \_ kill the Jews!  Push them into the sea!  It's the only fair
                 thing to do!  Then we'll have a final solution.
        \_ I think it's because the forum is anonymous people think that
           it's a free for all.  If we have vimotd and the logs are readable
           only by politburo, I don't think people would spew the kind of crap
           they do now.
           \_ only by politburo?  yeah right.  Either make it public and end
              anonymity or leave it alone.  Don't bother with half-way garbage.
              I don't really care which way it goes all that much but I believe
              anonymity allows people to express themselves more openly with
              out fear of some of the csua psychos using a few random comments
              against someone forever in an attempt to destroy their name. you
              know who I'm talking about, or should.  People who want public
              names attached to the conversation already have the wall which
              is so tame most of the time it's barely worth reading.
          \_ anonymity is the fundation of free speech.  Go back to school
             and read the damn Federalist Paper for once.
        \_ There have been some interesting discussions lately.  -John
        \_ I think we need another week of an unwritable motd!
           \_ What for?
        \_ it's danh's fault.
           \_ no it isn't.  I think danh is completely wrong and unable to
              support his views over 90% of the time but he certainly isn't
              the cause of any hatred on the motd.

7/23    satisfaction
http://stream.qtv.apple.com/qtv/videoc/http/benn001/benn001_http_300_ref.mov

7/23    http://www.webrats.com/kobewatch
        \_ speaking of Kobe, anybody else here read Dennis Rodman's book
           "Bad as I wanna be"?  He says things that people only think
           about but would never say it out loud for fear of being labelled
           racists.  The NBA for the black man is only about two things he
           said: money and sex with white women.
                           \- you should read "soul on ice" ok tnx --psb
           \_ I don't see what anyone has against this Japanese city.
              this is in particularly poor taste in light of the recent
              earthquake there.
              \_ yer momma tastes poor
              \_ oh yeah like so just because you had an earthquake we can't
                 write books about your purient interest in white women?  If
                 only poor Dennis understood those are white trash no different
                 than the $5 whores you can find on most corners in Oakland.
                 He'll never know the real thing.  I pity Dennis and the rest.
          \_ are there any studies done on the percentage of black athletes
             who marry white women?  The most famous one in recent memory is
             of course OJ simpson.  Dennis Rodman married and divorced a
             white woman as well.
             \_ Yes but 38% of them are made up.

7/23    More academic execellence from Berkeley
        UC BERKELEY STUDY - What do Hitler, Mussolini, Reagan and Rush
        Limbaugh Have in common....
        http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
        Too bad Hitler was a socialist.
        \_ Putting a general label like 'socialist' on what passes for
           Hitler's political philosophy is a bit simplistic.  I trust you've
           had a browse through Mein Kampf and a some good work on Nazi
           economic policy in the 1930s to help you come up with that
           statement.  -John

7/23    Anyone have any experience checking their soda email thru t-mobile's
        "t-zones" service? I just got a new phone that I'm messing around
        with and it seems pretty cool except for a couple glitches that I've
        been calling tech support about and wondering if anyone's gotten it
        to work right. thanks.                  - rory
        \_ http://www.ntk.net/2003/07/25/dohbad.gif  -John
        \_ Who the heck came up with that name. "combination skin and oily
           \_ you need an exfoliating mMode cleanser.           - rory
                \_ rory!  I fantasize about giving you a bikini wax.
                   \_ WTF is going on here.
           \_ Probably the same people who tried putting a computer store
              in the old Weird Stuff building in Sunnyvale (across from the
              old Fry's) and decided T-Zone was a much cooler name than
              Technology Zone.  Didn't last long.
           T-zones let me check my email ANYWHERE!" -chialea
        \_ I haven't had any luck, except through very basic SSH
           access through my P800.
        \_ and does anyone use the t-mobile internet (unlimited gprs for
           19.99 on top of voice plan)?  does it suck?  --karlcz
           \_ I think the rates have changed. I'm getting 1MB for 2.99,
              and I can upgrade to unlimited bandwidth for $10.
              \_ that is for t-zones WAP service.  tmobile internet
                 lets you use your phone (or pcmcia card) as a gprs
                 network interface for your laptop, pda, etc.
        \_ I know a couple people with t-mobile and they are angrier about
           lock of service than even the cingular users I know.  Data, voice,
           neither seem to work worth a damn.  No wonder if is so cheap.
           \_ I heartily disagree... perhaps the problem is your friends'
              phones? I recently switched to a Nokia 6610 (been using
              t-mobile for a while) and service dramatically improved. I'm
              almost never w/out connection. Plus, their customer service
              is fantastic. extremely helpful phone people. I lost my
              previous phone and was given a full month credit just because.
                \_ out of curiosity where in bay area are you?
                   \_ Manhattan. heh
          \_ I get full signal in mid-peninsula and south bay.  But I haven't
             tried east bay where my friend has almost no signals.
        \_ Update: alright, so I figured out the problem, but would like to
           come up with a better solution. When I check my soda email with
           my phone via POP3, it leaves all my msgs on the server but moves
           them off the spool to a mailbox file named "mbox" in my home dir.
           Usually I check my email with Outlook Express, which as far as I
           can tell, just checkes for msgs on the spool. Is there any way
           I can get these two different mail-checking methods to work
           together? is this standard behavior?
           \_ you have pop3 over ssl working with soda? i never got that
              working
              \_ I use pop3 over an ssh tunnel. ie, localhost:110 on my home
                 machine