Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:May:24 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2003/5/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:28540 Activity:very high
5/25    More on US racist imperialism
        \_ this is a good site in terms of murder by government statistics,
           but like (it often seems) everyone, they just aren't too bright.
           I'm sick of hearing this drivel about how "democracies" don't
           fight one another.
           \_ what's the most destructive war you can think of in which
              both sides were democracies?
                   \- how many democracies were there in the world between
                      1648 and 1945? --psb
                      1648 and 1945? how many democracies were there in
                      the year 1812? --psb
              \_ world war II, Hitler was democratically elected as was
                 mussolini.  Finland was a democracy at the time they
                 were fighting on the side of Germany et. al.  The whole
                 idea is just stupid.  It is more true and slightly less
                 meaningless to say "countries with mcdonald's in them
                 don't go to war against each other."  That is to say
                 that countries with stong economic interdependencies
                 and countries with similar cultures, are less likely to
                     \- the interdependence theory [sic] is pretty iffy.
                        in fact it isnt really a theory. does it apply to
                        france and england since 1066? were the alliances
                        of the peloponessian was explained by "cultural
                        and econ ties"? how about the post 1945 relations
                        between the US, Su and China? and of course the
                        war of 1812 again. the main problem is like that
                        with freudian theory ... it's hard to test because
                        it is so vague. it's not so much right or wrong
                        but either meaningless or more charitably an
                        assertion not a theory. (see APSR Dec97,pp913-917)
                        the %GDP in exports in 1900 was quite high ... that
                        level wasnt equalled for almost 50yrs after ww2.
                        remember states (should) seek security. interdependence
                        (often) means vulnurability. do you think germany
                        and japan liked being "interdependent" on other
                        countries for oil in the 1930s? there is a
                        huge lit on this since kohane and nye book.
                 go to war; but the idea of being a democracy somehow
                 magically keeping you from making war on other democracies
                 is just stupid.
                 \_ They were elected but then took over and made them into
                    100% dictatorships.  They were not democracies in any
                    sense of the word by the time any shooting started.  I'm
                    so tired of know nothing smart asses like you spouting off
                    like you know something.  This isn't a dorm lounge chat at
                    3am about whether or not God exists.  It's the motd and you
                    can't get away with making up shit like that here.
                    \_ dear moron, i notice you didn't address Finland.  Also
                       I can name a number of other examples of democracies
                        \_ Finland was a semi-autocratic nation under Field
                           Marshal Mannerheim at the time.  Likewise, it was
                           not a case of 'two democratic nations', as their
                           alliance with the Germans was a logical continuation
                           of being invaded by the USSR in 1939 and losing >10%
                           of their territory.  Your point about nukes is wrong,
                           and your historical points are shaky.  Likewise, your
                           list of criteria about nations with residual
                           totalitarianism below will find few applications in
                           modern Europe.  Plus, 'dear moron' is not a way
                           to win arguments.  Just some free advice.  -John
                       fighting one another, but you will just explain all of
                       them away until you are left making some stupid
                       statement which boils down to "Europe hasn't had any
                       warfare since world war II".  (btw, the reason for this
                       is simple:  NUKES).  I was asked for the "most
                       destructive" example and i gave it.  It is not the best.
                       It was the most destructive though.  Asking to specify
                       "the most destructive" is practically an admission of
                        defeat already.  If you don't accept democratically
                        elected govenments that turn dict. then you prob.
                        don't accept countries with nominal/residual monarchy
                        or countries with slavery/without universal suffrage
                        with makes the NUMBER of democracy/years in existence
                        pretty damn small with which to be making sweeping
                        generalizations like this.  Of course, a complete
                        lack of data points (or intelligence) has never been
                        enough to stop Poly Sci folks from spouting nonsese.
                 \_ aristotle hated democracies cos he felt it ruined athens.
                    caused them the wwar.
                    \-how is this relevant? i'm tempted to say this is
                      wrong, but it is really more correct to say this is
                      meaningless. --psb
                 \_ Very well stated.  who is this? -scotsman
                 \_ Exactly. There may be some anecdotal evidence that
                                               \- it's not "anecdotal
                                                  evidence". it's an
                                                  issue of is it a
                                                  "mere corrletation"
                                                  or is there a causal
                                                  explanation. and then
                                                  is the data fudged
                                                  on the correlation at
                                                  all. --psb
                    democracies don't go to war with one another, but
                    if you consider why countries go to war, there is
                    no reason a democracy wouldn't go to war with another
                 \_ Ooo Yea baby!  I've been waiting to hear this for some
                    \_ And you're incapable of typing it yourself?
                       \_ Too hard for me.
                          \-Hello, YMWTS: ~psb/DemoWar.commentarii. --psb
                            \_ How about adding another counfounding variable:
                               the deep fear of war European nations
                               (where a large number of the world's
                               democracies are) had after WWI and WWII,
                               which broke down the barriers for greater
                               efforts at integration such as the EU.
                               Or is that weak?
                                  \- What are you trying to explain?
                                     yes weak. "fear went down" is not
                                     an explanation; it is an assertion.
                                     why didnt the EC happen after the
                                     "fear went down" after napoleon was
                                     defeated? the concert of europe was
                                     a very different answer than the EC.
                                     how about "the frenchies stopped
                                     fearing someone capturing paris again
                                     aftger developing their "force de
                                     frappe". on the period between ww1/2
                                     see EHCarr 20 yrs crisis. that is a
                                     damn good book and Keynes: Econ
                                     Conseq Peace.
                                     On the point of everything being
                                     warm and fuzzy among the euro-allies:
                                     what do you think is more likely:
                                     --brit/france turn over their nuke
                                       arsenals to a "EC joint nuke command"
                                     --"team player germany" builds its
                                       own nukes.
                                       now it is possible neither will happen
                                       in the next 20yrs, but if you were a
                                       betting man, which would you bet on?
                                     \_ But but but, isn't it true that the
                                        nationalism and naitional rivalry
                                        among European nations as seen in
                                        the earlier half of the 20th
                                        century very much went away?  Isn't
                                        that part of the reaction to the
                                        horrors of WWI and WWII?  Or do you
                                        there a better theory for it?
                            \_ To add to it, another coun
2003/5/24-26 [Uncategorized] UID:28541 Activity:moderate
5/24    Have any of you looked at OpsWare (nee LoudCloud)? We're thinking
        of comparing them to BladeLogic. E-mail me. -- marco
        \_ email
        \_ email (or (eecs dude)
        \_ LoudCloud?  God, Dude... the dotcom thing is over.
           \_ do you even know the difference btwn opsware and loudcloud?
              if not then stfu
              \_ opsware, loudcloud, moonlight, what's the fucking diff?  it's
                 all dotcom crap.
2003/5/24 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:28542 Activity:nil
5/25    France was crying foul
        when Hitler occupied France.  Yet after Ally's victory, France
        turned around continue its occupation of Algeria and so-called
        Indo-China.  What justified French occupation of its "interest"
        while condemn the Nazi Germany for doing the same thing?
        What is the differences between Nazi dumping Jews to ghettoss
        versus USA dump its Japanese decents to concentration camp?
        Is the fact that USA and France is a democracy justify these
2003/5/24-26 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:28543 Activity:nil
5/24    Does anyone have anything good or bad to say regarding the
        LG VX4400 or the Motorola T720 phone? Other than price
        (the LG is $200, Motorola is $130), are they as equivalent
        as they appear? Thanks.
        \_ I doubt they are equivalent.  For example, Motorola likes
           to use their own DSP, which they can't get anyone else to
           buy.  Still, all the hot azn chics I met liked the T720.
                                                        - motorolan
2003/5/24-26 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:28544 Activity:high
5/24    Excuse the dumb question:  How does one use spamassassin on soda
        with pine?  Is there a simple how-to somewhere? (already tried the
        man pages)
        \_ Good Question. I'm writing a short spamassassin HOWTO man-page for
           soda, but I'm not an nroff expert. What's the easiest way to
           specify "preformatted" text (to keep line breaks intact) -brett
        \_ This sounds like one of those stupid "Does X work with cable
           modem?" type questions where X has nothing to do with cable
           \_ Does the new Sony MP3 Walkman thing work with cable modem?
        \_ exactly the same way u use it with every other mail client.
                \_ which is?  thanks!
                    \_ Dear Motd, i'm thinking we need a "MOTD FAQ"
                       what do y'all think?
                        \_ Good idea! You could put "man spam"
                           in your MOTD FAQ  -brett
                        \_ Let us know where you put the file.
        \_ man spam
        \_ procmail -> spamassassin -> pine. There are about a million
           hits on google for this sort of thing.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2003:May:24 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>