Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:December:11 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2002/12/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:26783 Activity:nil
12/10 []
        Goooooo bears!
        \_ I believe its pronounced: GO BEAH!
2002/12/11 [Science/GlobalWarming, Science/Physics] UID:26784 Activity:very high
12/10   Physics question: When one lifts weights, s/he exerts more forces,
        hence the pressure the ground s/he stands on receives more
        pressure.  Is that correct?  My friend tried to tell me it is
        rather because the object (the weights) are moving, it is the
        acceration that translates into greater force hence greater
        pressure.  But shouldn't the object as a whole (the weights +
        the weight lifter) be considered a still object since the area
        touching the ground isn't moving?  Any url reference to this
        would be great.
        \_ pressure is force per area, so if the are is fixed(the area
           of the bottoms of your shoes if you are standing), then the
           force is your weight plus the weight of the weights plus
           the added force from the acceleration of the weights.  this
           added force is the mass of the weights plus your arms(measuresd
           in slugs) times the acceleration you apply.  if you don't bielive
                \_ what do you mean measured in slugs?  It doens't matter
                   what units you use.  English units are confusing.  Best
                   to use kg to measure mass, but slugs will work too.
                   \_ right. i was just making the point that slugs
                      are mass and pounds are force.  IF you use kilograms,
                      you'd better use Newtons, which most people are
                      not familiar with.
           that this aceleration adds force, accelerate the weights as
           fast as you can, and feel the burn in the knees.
           to keep the same force, but change preassure on the floor, just
           change area: stand on tiptoes or sit down.
           \_ You can also do the experiment by lifting dumbbell while standing
              on a bathroom scale.  The reading is roughly the same as the
              force (although expressed in mass units) between your feet and
              the ground when the scale is not there.  Watch the reading
              becomes higher after you grab the dumbbells and hold them steady.
              Then watch the reading changing when you accelerate and
              decelerate the dumbbells in the vertical direction.
           \_ I understand f=ma.  But ultimately, it's the weight lifter
              that needs to exert more force.  The acceration of the
              weights is caused by the extra force the lifter has to put
              out.  My friend's argument is that the accerleration generates
              more force, but isn't it really the oher way around in this
              case?  The fact of the weights moving at an accerlerated speed
              and the greater pressure are both caused by the more force
              exerted from the lifter, no?
              \_ Don't confuse energy and force.  I can slump on the sofa
                 like a big pig not spending a single calorie of energy,
                 but my fat butt would still be exerting a force on the
                 sofa.  Remember Energy = Force x Distance Moved.  I
                 am a lazy bum who don't like to move, and AnyForce x Zero
                 is still equal to Zero.
                 \_ hmm.  I am more confused with weight v.s. force.
                          Isn't weight force in the first place? _/
                    Help me settle the bet here.  My friend's arguement
                    is weight changes as objects are being lifted.  But
                    my argument is it's the force that's changing, not
                    weight.  Isn't weight simply the gravitational pull
                    on the mass?  In this case, aren't both constant?
                    \_ What the bathroom scale usually measures is the
                       gravitational attraction (a force) between your mass
                       and the fat lump of mass we call the Earth.  When you
                       hold onto two dumbbells like some dumb body builder
                       and stand on the bathroom scale, it is now measuring the
                       the gravitational attraction between "your mass
                       plus two dumbbells" and the Earth.  When you are
                       further accelerating the two dumb bells upwards,
                       the bathroom scale is now measuring the above plus
                       an additional force exerted by the accelerating
                       dumbbells on your body.  Remember "Action Reaction".
                       That's why when measuring yourself on a bathroom scale,
                       you try to be naked, so that there isn't any
                       extra mass, and you try not to jump up and down.
                       What your friend refers to as "weight" is what
                       is measured on the bathroom scale.  What you
                       refer to as "weight" is the gravitational
                       attraction between your mass and the Earth's mass.
                       As seen above, the two of you are referring to
                       different things.  The two are only one and the same
                       when you are naked and not jumping up and down.
                       I think I have been trolled.  Oh well.
                    \_ Your friend's thinking is inherently flawed, but explain
                       it to him this way:
                       When you talk about a person's weight, you imply that
                       that person isn't moving.  If he jumps up while on a
                       scale, his "weight" will increase as he jumps up.
                       This is cheating; you take weight when you're standing
                       still.  So you can't be pushing dumbbells while taking
                       your weight.
                       Likewise, you can't raise your arms up and down.  Ask
                       him if his weight is changing when he's pumping his
                       arms or jumping on the scale.
              \_ conservation of angular momentum
                 \_ Huh?
                    \_ Check an elementary physics text.  Or sit on a
                       computer chair, hold a spinning bicycle wheel and
                       twist it.
                       \_ Yeah I know what conservation of angular momentum is,
                          but what does that have to do with the questions in
                          this thread?
        \_ the overall pressure's the same but your feet exert more.
                       \- if you have flies in a jar on a scale
                          the scale wil read the same whether they are
                          sitting on the bottom, the side or flying ...
                          but at lift off it will register more.
                        \- here is a fun problem: you have a uniform gold
                           chain of legnth l ... say 1meter ... with mass
                           m ... say 100 grams. you hold the chain l units
                           above a scale and drop it. so at t0 when you
                           release the chain, the scale reads 0 and at t1
                           then the chain is resting on the scale, it reads
                           m->100g ... plot f(t) between t0->t1 where f(t)
                           is what the scale reads. this might be sort of
                           unkind as an interview problem for a software
                           guy :-)   --psb
                                \_ Birkett demonstrated and then explained
                                   this in class once, but I forgot the
                                   physical basis of it. Can you post it?
                           \_ typical physics h7a homework problem
                                \_ yeah, so typical.
                           \_ Ok, I give up.  What is the solution?
                              I got a big complicated equation
                              ( (7Mggtt)/(2l) ) which I don't think
                              is right.
2002/12/11-12 [Finance/Investment] UID:26785 Activity:high
12/10   How come mortgage interest rates didn't drop sharply during the past
        month given that the 0.5% Fed intereste rate drop on 11/6 was a
        surprise one rather than an anticipated one?
        \_ Long-term (expected) budget deficits keep bond prices low.
           Interest rates move in the opposite direction of bond prices.
           \_ to add to this, mortgage rates do indeed follow the yield on
              the 30 year treasury.  Like the stock market, expectation
              moves the rate rather than the actual news.  That's why you
              see the market go up in anticipation of a news and actually
              drop after the news is confirmed.  Mortage rates are the same
              deal.  The threat of Iraq and imminent war will drive the
              mortgage rate down.  When when the bombs actually start
              dropping and we're kicking ass, you'll see it come back up
              \_ 5.825%/15 year baby!  Love this economy!
                 \_ I just refi'ed last week and got 5.375%/15 conforming.
                    \_ Let the mortgage dick waving commence!
        \_ It's not worth it for the companies to drop their rates. They've
           got enough business via refi's and new home buyers, dropping their
           rate overloads their business for low profit.
        \_ Home mortgages have to compete for cash, just like everything
           else. The other big competitor for the low-risk, long-term
           yield is 30 treasury bonds, so mortgages can't move too far
           from them. But there are other bonds, like AAA rated corporates,
           that are similar. So just the fact that the Fed is lending money
           at a lower rate to banks, doesn't neccessarily lower rates to
           to the consumer. Above posters said this, but in a less clear
           fashion, imo.
           \_ So, since the Fed lowering the rate doesn't mean consumer can get
              lower rates, how is the Fed lowering the rate going to stimulate
              the economy?  It still costs investors the same to borrow money
              to invest, so they won't be any more willing than before to
              invest and create jobs.
              \_ same way as tax cuts for the rich: trickle down economics!
                 \_ I knew we were getting trickled on!
2002/12/11-12 [Science/Electric] UID:26786 Activity:very high
12/10   If you are changing jobs, can you count on people at your current
        company to provide honest references despite the obvious conflict of
        \_ obviously it depends on the people
        \_ I usually keep in touch with those who left before me.  Then
           again, you need to keep contacts before you are even thinking
           of leaving your current job
           \_ The funny thing is, the only person I know who left before
              me was the guy who held my current position and only worked
              there 3 weeks.  The ones who will could give good references
              won't because they will be boned if I leave.  The ones who
              accept that I'm leaving are idiots.  This sucks.  -OP
              \_ How long have you been working at this place? If new, you
                 can use references from previous job and explain away the
                 lack of references from current job. This would imply that
                 someone actually checks the references.
                 \_ Don't people check references?  Otherwise, you could
                    claim credit for more than your share of work.
        \_ How about talking to the ones who will be boned. If they are
           mature adults they should be able to handle it professionally.
           If not, candidly offer them a bribe.
2002/12/11 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:26787 Activity:nil
12/10   I have some RTF files that I want to extract the text from.
        Any recommendations on good, simple UNIX apps? (not "strings")
        I use "catdoc" for .doc's. But it doesn't do rtf.
        \_ Typing "rtf<Ctrl-D>" at soda shell prompt yields rtf2LaTeX. No, I
           don't know how well that thing works. Also, the catdoc
           website ( has an "rtf2html" posted.
           Same disclaimer applies.
                \_ Thanks. the rtf2html I found earlier was from 1993. This one
                   you pointed me to was upgraded in 1998. Works Great.
                   Thanks -op
        \_ real men use strings.  truly real men write their own in perl.
                \_ Why reinvent the wheel? True men take existing open-source
                   software and improve upon it and put it back out into the
                   world, GPL Style.
                   \_ The GPL is for babies.  That's newbie shit.  Real men
                                     \_ I believe the proper term is
                                        quiche eaters
                      predate this gpl craziness, write their own code, and
                      you can have the source if you can break in and take it.
2002/12/11-13 [Politics/Domestic/California, Transportation/Car] UID:26788 Activity:high
12/11   Is there any discount for FasTrak users on bridges?  Someone told me
        there is, but when I look at there isn't
        any.  Thanks.
        \_ $4 instead of $5 on the Golden Gate:
           \_ This should end soon. Budget problems.
           \_ Golden Gate is FIVE dollars?? How long has this been the
              case???                   - moved out of the Bay Area
                \_ A year or two.
                   \_ No, it started September 2002. --aaron
        \_ BB, SM, and DB bridges used to be 1.85 but now 2.00
        \_ fastrack is not about discounts.  its about making traffic move
           faster.  it doesn't but that's the idea.  they don't need to
           discount a service (using bridge) that you're goint to use anyway.
           \_ what about all the unemployed tooltakers?
                \_ I've heard that those people supplement their income
                   with the tolls.
                \_ what about them?  is there a real question here?  are you
                   in favor of eliminating all labor saving devices to increase
                   employment for the unskilled?
                   \_ yes.
                        \_ Cool, as you're obviously unemployed and desperate
                           for work, post your name.  I have some ditches that
                           need digging.  -John
                           \_ You think the poster is qualified?
                              \_ Let's see: strong back, good work ethic--
                                 nope, no motd'rs fit the bill.
2002/12/11 [Uncategorized] UID:26789 Activity:nil
12/11   This has been done before, but we need an updated version with new
        characters.  Cast sodans as Star Wars characters!  I'll get the ball
        \_ the new trilogy is a piece of shit, and frankly RotJ was no
           great shakes either. why are you wasting your time with this
           crap? --aaron
2002/12/11 [Uncategorized] UID:26790 Activity:nil
12/11   Hot Spanish butts! :-)
        \_ These are men's butts :(  Most Sodans are straight men so I
           doubt this link will be of much value.
           \_ I feel oppressed by this statement.  I think you are expressing
              a sentiment I have perceived in other venues that homosexual
              males and heterosexual females have no place in this
2002/12/11-12 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:26791 Activity:high
12/10   Can anyone recommend any good tests for wireless equipment in a
        campus network environment, with a large-ish number of clients?
        Everything I come across only does performance benchmarking with
        single clients.  I'm hoping for some tips on how to go about properly
        setting up such an environment.   -John
        \_ What kind of tests?  What are you looking for?
           \_ I have an environment with large amounts of very very bursty
              traffic (it's a school, with classrooms full of kids all
              logging on at the same time.)  I'd like to avoid dropping APs
              all over the place, although if I have to, I'll consider
              citrix.  These are Win2k laptops doing domain logins.  -John
              \_ Write a script that simulates bursty traffic.  Put them
                 on some laptops on a cart and push them around the school.
                 Add APs where performance is bad.
              \_ Wow.. didn't realise the job market in Europe was that bad.
                \_ Excuse me?  They've got _me_ in as a consultant, trying
                   to figure out Win2k problems...I haven't seen any
                   dotcom-dropout breadlines here recently... -John
        \_ Agilent. I know a guy who works in their wireless test division if
           that helps.
2002/12/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:26792 Activity:high
12/10   How does one explain proofs by induction to an idiot?
        \_ Lead him through it step by step.  He should be able to arrive
           at the conclusion.  -John
           \- sing "the sun will come out tomorrow, tomorrow, you can
                   bet your bottom dollar" --psb
           \_ No that's how you explain it to an intelligent person/adolescent
              who has never been taught induction. I don't think induction is
              for idiots.
                \_ It was supposed to be a joke.  -John
        \_ Here, hold this wire...
        \_ A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step
        \_ ask them to use an indirect proof to prove that induction doesn't
           work.  walk them through a simple proof, like how summing increasing
           odd numbers generates squares.
        \_ On the same note, does anyone have a good online reference to
           explain induction to a 16 year old brother?
           \_ see the above mathforum link.
           \_ is he an idiot?
           \_ Schools haven't taught this to 11th graders?
              \_ Go back to russia, jew.
                 \_ It was taught in the 10th year in Britain.
                 \_ I was taught induction in 8th grade (Cupertino CA)
                    I'm poor at geography and history but I'm pretty
                    sure that Cupertino is not has never been a part
                    of russia (or the USSR).
                    sure that Cupertino has never been a part of
                    russia (or the USSR).
                    \_ This one is a master of double-think.
                        \_ RAdm Poindexter is watching you. Don't
                           be surprised if the Ministry of Truth
                           pays you a visit.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:December:11 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>