Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:October:27 Sunday <Saturday, Sunday>
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2002/10/27-28 [Transportation/Car] UID:26332 Activity:insanely high
10/25   Do any websites (ala Mapquest or Etak) approximate The Travelling
        Salesman Problem? I went to visit 15 condos in San Diego today, and
        it was a bitch using Yahoo+Thomas guide to map out a semi-ideal
        route. I don't need an optimum path, just a first order approximation.
        I don't think I'll ever need more than 20 addresses at once either...
        I'd pay $.99 every time I need this feature...
        \- the emacs mapquest interface can do that.
           do M-x mapquest-metropolis --psb
           \_ I knew emacs was cool. I didn't know how cool until now.
           \_ Is this the real psb? Because that didn't work for me.
              \- you need the Los Alamos Simulated Annealing emacs lisp
                 package. --psb
              \- that was not the real psb. ok tnx. -psb
                 \- no, that was me. the immediately above is not me. --psb
                 \_ You mean it was !psb, right psb?
        \_ What is the "Travelling Salesman Problem"?
           \_ No cookie.
           \_ find out the route which traverses all cities with the minimum
              distance.
        \_ Just use the thomas guide. It's at 1200dpi. mapquest is at
           whatever resolution your monitor is at.
           \_ you're a moron
               \_ My point is that there is WAY more detail on a single
                  thomas guide page than on 30 yahoo maps put together.
                        \_ Okay, get a Real map (Thomas or AAA) big enough
                           to fit all the points. Then put a dot sticker at
                           each address and use your highly evolved
                           mamalian intellect to see patterns. Connect the
                           dots. Do you have a beter solution?
                           dots. It's not perfect, but do you have a solution?
                  \_ You're still a moron. The OP wants to know how to get
                     from point A -> B -> ... -> Z in an optimal manner.
        \_ Hey person with Etak friend... can you ask them if they have
           anything like that. Or is there any API where a 3rd party could
           program that feature?
        \_ I can't wait until <DEAD>maps.google.com<DEAD>... google would support it!
        \_ Even your first order solution will be near useless because of the
           ugly realities of traffic patterns, highway congestion, etc.  I'll
           get 30 miles down a freeway at 3am faster than you'll get 10 miles
           down a dirt road at noon.  Just use some common sense.
           \- the algorithms allow for weights ... of coure knowing what
              weights to plug in in a little tricky. i am not sure the
              algorithms i know of can deal with "asymmetric" weights ...
              usually on a metric the distance from d(x,y) = d(y,x) which
              clearly isnt true with traffic flows if we care about time.
              although some LA trunks seem to be equally congested in both
              directions. --psb
           \_ When you're taking city streets within a 5 mile range, it
              isn't that big of a difference. Or at least not in my case.
        \_ isn't there a way to plot multiple locations at once? just do that
           and do a rough aproximation yourself. the above poster is right...
           small distance details will be less important than type of road,
           traffic, etc. But just plotting them all on one map should be
           enough for you to use common sense to plan a route.
           \_ This would work. Which service supports this (yahoo doesn't)?
2002/10/27-28 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:26333 Activity:low
10/25   THe answer to how to get the google DNA button:
        http://toolbar.google.com/dc/#trouble3
        \_ Who asked?
2002/10/27 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:26334 Activity:nil
10/27   by 03 repugs will control the white house, the senate
        and the house, as well as majority of the governorships.
        \_ because you always look smart using cutesy little ad hominen when
           discussing your political opposition.  you wouldn't look like an
           ignorant bratty child.  nope, not at all.  have a nice day.
           \_ And responding in kind makes you look so much more mature.
2002/10/27-28 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/SW/Virus] UID:26335 Activity:high
10/27   In Defense of The Boom:
        http://csua.org/u/46e
        \_ What's the csua-motd username password ay nytimes?
           \_ csuamotd:csuamotd
              \_ what other web accounts does csua have?
                 \_ csua:csua at some places.  LAtimes is username:password
                 \_ csuacsua : csuacsua for Sun's JDK et al. downloads
                 \_ how about if we make a file somewhere on soda that lists
                    all of these and if people create a new one they could
                    submit it in there?
2002/10/27-28 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:26336 Activity:very high
10/28   So why is it that gas prices in the bay area (any city, any station)
        are higher and sometimes *much* higher than the isolated, zero
        competition stations on the I-5?  What's the excuse for that BS?
        \_ gas/food/utility is a small fraction of your housing expense.
           Why don't anyone bitch about that?
        \_ They've admitted all along that gas prices are based in part
           on income levels of the zip code.  Then throw in the cost of
           doing business in the bay area, and there you are.
        \_ Buy a hybrid
        \_ My first thought would be land expense.  Also, how about taxes?
           There might be far higher taxes in urban areas.  --PeterM
           \_ When I drove the I5 in '89, gas was about 50% higher on the I5
              than here.  I'm not aware of any changes in the tax rates that
              would account for 10% lower on the I5 now.
              would account for 10% lower on I-5 now.
        \_ supply and demand. No matter how expensive the gas is your wealthy
           next-door-retired-HP/IBM/Intel-guy-who-worked-here-for-30-years
           when-a-3000-sq-ft-house-in-SJ-was-only-$80,000 will still pay for
           the gas, lowering competition. That's why BA sucks. Let's all
           leave! I did and I'm happy.
           \_ amen on that, man.  fuck the bay area.  i pay 25% less in gas
              or so, *and* i walk to work every day from a decent home.
           \_ When the next gas is 30 to 60 miles and your typical driver has
              another 200+ miles to go, I'd say supply is low and demand is
              high on the I5.  I think you might have something with the "Bay
              Area people are just stupid" concent, though.
              \_ More people live here than travel along I5.  Why is demand
                 necessarily high?  Besides, people are more inclined to be
                 picky if they know they are going to spend a large sum on
                 gas in the next few hours.
           \_ bullshit.  it's collusion.
        \_ a Hydrogen/Solar economy is inevitable.
              \- There are two major variables you can collpase this to
                 per occam to get good quality explanation: 1. REGULATION
                 2. COMPETITION. The regulations explain why production
                 costs in califnornia are higher and (surprise) explain why
                 costs of gas are high all over CA. 2. As for why gas prices
                 are higher in Bay Area than Los Angles, that is largely
                 competition [LA has more gas stations per unit area].
                 A third factor, production costs [I am including shipping
                 from production site, to refining site, refining costs,
                 jobber costs,and finally shipping to pump], probably
                 contributes some ... large diameter pipelines are the cheapest
                 way to move oil ... and there is no lg diameter pipeline to
                 CA ... however supertankers are actually pretty cheep, and
                 if this were the largest contributing factor, you would think
                 Hawaii would have the most expensive gas, but SF started to
                 pass Hawaii a little while back. You can discover this and
                 more via emacs M-x analyze-local-petrolium-mkt. You may
                 need to do a (setq calendar-latitude +38.9)
                              (setq calendar-longitude -122.25)
                     guess what, the Bay and the I5 are both in CA and suffer
                 first, however. ok tnx, --psb
                 \_ all of which fails to address the question, which is
                    "why are gas prices higher in the Bay Area than on I-5",
                     guess what, the Bay and I-5 are both in CA and suffer
                     from the same regulation.  And as for competition,
                     it always seems to me that gas stations on I-5 are
                     crowded all the time, while gas stations in the Bay
                     are not so busy.  If anything, it argues for economies
                     of scale on I-5 vs local stations in the Bay.
                     What about land expense, taxation, and lower labor costs,
                     also?
                     \_ Are you stupid or just stupid?  Try looking into the
                        regulations before presuming they're statewide.
                        \_ I was criticizing psb, who only mentioned CA
                           regulations.  He made no claims about regional
                           regulation.
                           \_ criticizing on what he _didn't_ say... train
                           be diff in the i-5 case. what you need to look at
                              harder.
                     \_ Land is cheap along I-5, but expensive in the BA.
                        \- "crowded" is not the measure of competition.
                           the franchise terms and jobber set ups may also
                           isnt a matter of competition. if the i5 gas station
                           be diff in I-5 case. what you need to look at
                           are profit margins. a higher price can reflect
                           either higher costs, perceived product differen-
                           tiation or rents/mkt/power/less competition.
                           if the price is higher due to higher costs, that
                           isnt a matter of competition. if an I-5 gas station
                           has a larger profit margin, that may be an
                           interesting phenomenon looking for an explanation.
                           the mcdonalds outside the grand canyon has really
                           high prices. is it because they have a monopoly
                           from the park? no. it is outside the park in BF
                           nowhere ... where rents cannot possibly be high.
                           while they are the only fast food place there, that
                           is still not a monopoly because of the idea of
                           contestability [if they were making undue profits
                           then someone else would open up a restuarant].
                           so the real explanation is costs. it turns out you
                           basically have to run a dorm for your crew to have
                           them live in BF nowhere. --psb
                           \- BTW, there is an interesting discussion in
                              Kwoka & White: The antitrust revolution:
                              economics, competition, and policy
                                         ok tnx, --psb
        \_ This is a troll... I was on the I-5 over the weekend and it was
           almost always more expensive on the 5 than in Berkeley.
           Berkeley ~ $1.45; I saw up to $1.89 on the 5.
           \_ Maybe not: http://csua.org/u/476
        \_ Collusion. Why does everyone ignore the obvious?
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:October:27 Sunday <Saturday, Sunday>