Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:August:23 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2002/8/23 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:25657 Activity:insanely high
8/22    try to figure this one out. "tax cuts are not spending restraint,
        they are spending." Sen. Lieberman in Iowa recently.
        \_ tax cuts would be restraint if there was not deficit spending.
           spending cuts are spending restraint. tax cuts == more debt.
        \_ his assertion here is that you are spending money by giving it
           to whomever the tax cuts favor. typically, rich people.
           \_ as opposed to cutting unemployment benefits and health
              benefits which are spending restraint
           \_ As opposed to giving free money to someone so they will
              vote for you and for more money.  Democrats core
              philosophy is class warfare.
              \_ Purpose of govt is the curb the strong and protect the weak
                 \_ No, the purpose of government is to maintain order,
                    PROTECT OUR BORDERS, enforce the law and otherwise stay
                    the fuck out of the way.  Go read the federalist papers
                    or the constitution or *something*.  Civics, it does a
                    body good.
              \_ Republicans just give the money to their rich friends instead.
                 Which is class warfare too, just of a different kind.
                 \_ You are wrong, conservatives want the
                    people who EARNED the money to keep it.  Imagine
                    that, rewarding initiative.
                    \_ Hah!  See?  You all hate poor people!  Don't you know
                       that the rich have a moral obligation to take care of
                       the poor?  You can afford it even if you're still
                       paying a greater share of taxes by percent of your
                       income, by percent of the total tax take, and by a few
                       other percent counting methods (all of them, actually),
                       even after all the so-called tax breaks.  Vicious, evil
                       money grubbers just don't understand what it's like to
                       be put down by The Man all the time!  Send more free
                       money I haven't earned and I'll vote for you!  -Democrat
                        \_ Ah, so the guilty liberal conscious finally
                           rears its ugly head.  You are more than welcome
                           to subsidize whoever you want, whatever you
                           want, whenever you want.
                           However, when you take 40% of my money by coercion
                           to pay for Socialized everything that is tyranny!
                           Don't you see the inherent racism in your
                           comment - the unwashed masses (eg. brown people)
                           need me, the gallant liberal, to define
                           their existence.  Fucking disgusting.
                           \_ you're both unconvincing.  the above troll
                              clearly is bullshitting, and i don't believe
                              you are really what you say you are either.
                              train harder.
                              \_ it wasn't a troll, moron.  its called sarcasm
                                 and maybe irony & a touch of hyperbole as
                                 well.  it isn't my fault if _both_ of you are
                                 too stupid to see it.  at least the Right
                                 recognised the Left's philosophy in my
                                 so-called troll, whereas the Left is incapable
                                 of recognising what they look like outside
                                 their tight little Anti-Think niche.  -!troll
        \_ Tax cuts are no different than spending as far as keeping a balanced
           budget is concerned.
           \_ However there is an important distinction between spending which
              means draining the economy of money through taxes for some sort
              of artificial redistribution plan (communism) and reducing taxes
              which requires lowering spending across the board and reducing
              the size of government (one of the things true conservatives
              believe in).  And who said a balanced budget is good anyway?
              Debt is not always bad.  It depends on how big your debt, at
              what rate(s), for what purpose(s) and how much you need to pay
              back vs. your income.
                \_ We're paying something like 25-33% of our national income
                   toward interest on our debt.  Is that good debt?
                   \_ Liar.  Or ignorant fool.
                      \_ Well "something like" could mean anything from 0-100.
                   \_ I'm not a specialist in macro-economics.  I have no idea.
              \_ Artificial redistribution plans?  Like farm subsidies?
                 \_ Actually, yes, like farm subsidies and welfare, and a
                    whole bunch of other stupid wasteful programs that destroy
                    this country's soul.  Yes.  Artificial redistribution.
                 \_ Yeah, and public education. Another communist plot.
                    \_ Actually, I knew some Berkeley students who did
                       denounce public education as "communist". It
                       baffles me that someone who thinks so low of
                       public education decided to go to Berkeley.
                        \_ Right thats why evil vouchers would
                           allow those who pay the taxes in the first
                           place to choose a school for their children.
                           Freedom of choice, that is anticommunist.
                           And have you bothered to investigate
                           any of the allegations made? Our public
                           education system is in ruin, despite an throwing
                           endless stream of money at it.  Yet, you
                           never stop to ask yourself why that is.
                           \_ Wow -- you sound like a true libertarian.
                              Sign your posts, man.  I'm curious to know
                              who you are -- honest-to-god libertarians are
                              rare -- esp in berkeley.        -mice
                              \_ <DEAD>www.geekpad.org<DEAD> is a house full of 'em...
                                 in berkeley.
                              \_ I'm not at all libertarian but I 100% agree
                                 with the above on the totally worthless
                                 public schools and vouchers.  And btw, this
                                 country didn't always have public schools, yet
                                 somehow the earth kept spinning and the sun
                                 rose in the east every morning.  Go figure.
2002/8/23 [Uncategorized] UID:25658 Activity:nil 62%like:25654
8/22    has anyone here read Stephen Wolfram's absurdly massive book?
        is it worth a damn?
        \_ who?
        \_ You mean Stephen WOLFRAM the scientist?
           \_ yeah, author of mathematica.  just wrote absurdly large book.
        \_ no,but i've been spending an absurd amount of time playing jon and
           bernie and rik's horribly addictive game Wulfram2
2002/8/23 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:25659 Activity:high
8/22    mabye the bush supporters here would like to explain what internment
        camps for US citizens stipped of all rights have to do with
        the "core conservative values" you always drone on about.
        http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0814-05.htm
        LA times article by GW law professor about Ashcrofts plans
        for US concentration camps for those deemed unloyal.
        \_ Report to the re-education camps immediately.
        \_ It is a subject that deserves more than just a
           a few sentences in the MOTD or an article in the LA times.
           If you want a serious discussion without demagoguery, including
           links to ex parte Quirin and other relevant SCOTUS rulings
           try these:
           http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/735247/posts?page=1,50
           http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/733078/posts?page=51,50
           http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/736952/posts
           \_ ok, so it seems freepers can see this for the blatant
              attack on american freedoms it is.  so why are they
              so gung ho for Bush?  he appointed Ashcroft.
              everyone but total idiots knew he would appoint people
              with Ashcrofts ideology.  so why all the bush loving?
              is it a lesser of evils thing?
              also, i'd like to point out that one of your freeper links
              is just a link to the same article i posted.  -op
              \_ Here.  Read this.  There are laws in the this country and
                 things are being taken care of.  Just chill and relax and
                 smoke a bowl.  You'll feel better knowing the system works.
                 Checks and balances, kids.
                 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50967-2002Aug22.html
                 \_  1. that's a seperate isssue: surveilance
                     2. you still haven't answered my question
                     3. your beloved bush administration is already chalenging
                        the decision.
           Fine, I'll keep your links, but they are missing valuable
           insight and information you will unlikely find elsewhere.
           There is no competition of ideas, just punditry.
           http://nyt.com/focus/news/735247/posts?page=1,50
           http://nyt.com/focus/news/733078/posts?page=51,50
           http://nyt.com/focus/news/736952/posts
        \_ That's not the half of it. Check out this:
           http://csua.org/u/1a4
        \_ You see, in this country we have this thing we call 'the law' and
           just because the La Times tells you someone plans on breaking the
           law or has been breaking the law does not mean it is so.  If in
           fact some actually really does break the law then that has nothing
           to do with conservative values.  Let us know when it happens and
           then there'll be something to talk about.
        \_ The problem with links like this from sites with an obvious
           political agenda is the entire piece is based on their claims of
           the existance of plans for internment camps and rights stripping
           for US citizens, however, they fail to provide any reference to
           said plans and force the reader to take their word for it at face
           value (which you apparently have) with no reliable evidence
           what so ever.  Whatever your own politics may be, and this applies
           to everyone on the motd, it is important to carefully examine and
           question the sources one relies upon for information and the basis
           for one's views and beliefs.  Without a reliable second or third
           source, the reader is at the mercy of the agenda driven and we all
           *know* people with an axe to grind will always twist a story or only
           tell the parts (out of context) that support their views.  This is
           an 'intellectually dangerous' path to follow.  Question everything.
           \_ what part of US citizens arrested on US soil don't you
              understand?
                \_ there is this place called a prison where there are tons
                 of american citizens arrested and lots of illegal aliens as
                 well.
                \_ US citizens get arrested all the time.  That's what happens
                   when you break the law.  I understand and enourage that sort
                   of thing.  We even sometimes extradite people from other
                   counrties to this country to try and jail them.  Seriously,
                   dude, you're going nowhere with that simplistic comment.
2002/8/23-24 [Computer/SW/P2P] UID:25660 Activity:very high
8/23    Will network performance suck again, now that the semester is
        starting?  Or has something been done about it?
        \_ it sucked before?
           \_ you didn't notice?
              \_ guess not :)
           \_ yes.
        \_ If you can't beat them, join 'em.  dl kazaa.
           \_ Make sure to get the fully spyware enabled trjoan horse version.
        \_ Some things have been done.  SETI@@@@@@@@Home now has its own ISP
           connection.  The cost of bandwidth has come down, so our
           bandwidth cap is now 90 megabits/sec instead of 70 megabits/sec.
           Within the next week or two, it will be raised to 100 megabits/sec
           once some new hardware is installed.
           My guess is that there will still be performance issues, if not
           at the beginning of the semester, then at least by the end of the
           calendar year.  I'm currently writing up a report requesting
           immediate emergency funding for bandwidth charges, with longer-
           term plans to do more with managing KaZaa, and managing or
           charging high-bandwidth users in general.  -tom
           \_ That's how it starts.  Next you'll be putting KaZaa users
              into camps.  And people using KaZaa _and_ SETI@Home will be
              put to death.  Heil Tom!
              \_ I don't know tom or his personality, but I think his
                 idea above is good.
                 \_ Sure, until someone decides *your* traffic isn't a priority
                    and you should be charge or 'managed'.
           \_ and just how do you plan to put a stop to Kazaa users when the
              Kazaa topology is dynamic?
                    \- you can because the "protocol isnt dynamic"
              \_ I don't think you can "put a stop" to peer-to-peer file
                 sharing; certainly not by technical means, on a campus like
                 Berkeley.  But the effects of KaZaa can be measured, and
                 the people using KaZaa can be managed.  (As in, "stop doing
                 that").  Remember, we're talking about on-campus machines,
                 not the dorms (which have their own separate cap).  Note
                 that the problem with KaZaa on campus is files being
                 downloaded by people from off-campus; campus people
                 using KaZaa to download files don't contribute to the
                 problem due to the current algorithm for bandwidth
                 charging.  -tom
                 \_ stopping p2p pirary on college campuses is VERY easy.
                    All you need to do is to adopt a new university policy
                    that sez if you're caught pirating stuff you'll be
                    expelled.  No appeals.  then you start the random search
                    in the dorms and start expelling some of the incoming
                    freshman.  You'll see the p2p traffic drop to NIL once
                    the pictures of expelled freshmen gets on Daily Cal.
                    Remember the naked guy?  After the law against nudity
                    at Berkeley and on campuses, and he got expelled, nobody
                    dared to show up naked.  Enforcement is the key.  Expell
                    the little fuckers without due process and you'll see
                    \_ Or as they say, "try and then execute them!"
                    everybody marching in line.
                 \- stopping kaza, gnutella, napster and a couple of other
                    p2p piracy programs is solved problem technically.
                    it is fairly strightforward to detect them in real time
                    and blast them with RST packets. it is an open question
                    what the policy should be and it is slightly involved
                    attempting to "whitelist" some users who are allegedly
                    using it for "real work". the "dynamic topology" and
                    configurable ports dont matter. of course there are
                    more involved ways to hide, but 99% of the users at
                    the moment dont do that ... although the number of
                    evaders may increase *some* if the "kazka obliterator"
                    code were deployed. ok tnx.
                         \- actually to do this 100% on a large scale isnt
                            that simple technically, but it is pretty simple
                            to deploy something that fucks up enough
                            p2p programs so that it is effectively unusable.
                            and this is a case where you dont need 100%
                            coverage to change behavior.
                            \_ The problem is, the more you fuck it up, the
                               more incentive you provide to find ways
                               around the blocks.  It will always be easier
                               to hide file sharing than to block it.
                                  \- thus far, untrue. or only true with
                                     very sophisticated users and very
                                     unsophisticated detectors ... but not
                                     inherently true. --psb
                               But certainly there are measures which could
                               be taken which would make an impact, if it's
                               decided that it's a good idea to take such
                               measures.  (The other problem is, once you
                               make people hide their P2P usage, you have
                               a harder time finding them to rap their
                               knuckles).   -tom
                               \-as i said above, most attempts to hide
                                 do not work against a good detection
                                 system. if you are doing something stupid
                                 like looking for a static port or a
                                 list of src/dst addresses like in the
                                 case of the napster "metaservers" it is
                                 easy to get around by just punching in a
                                 different number somewhere ... but at this
                                 point setting up a fancy proxy or encrypted
                                 tunnel is beyond the ken of most of the
                                 community ... perhaps something canned will
                                 emerge soon that gets around the current
                                 generation of our detectors, but at the moment
                                 this is not a technical but a political/
                                 resource allocation problem. this is based
                                 on many months of experience at a decent
                                 sized institution with a fair number of
                                 sophisticated users. --psb
                               \_ Is this the point where we start talking
                                  about The Tragedy Of The Commons?  I miss
                                  those threads....
2002/8/23 [Uncategorized] UID:25661 Activity:nil 72%like:25655
8/22    whew... new job, back on the motd... its been a while.
        \_ you didn't miss much.
        \_ how is your new job?
           \_ And what were you doing before the new job and being back?
2002/8/23 [Uncategorized] UID:25662 Activity:nil
8/23    Here's why you need to be *very* careful who you believe and what you
        base your political beliefs on, especially if the source is obviously
        agenda-driven. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020823-23126206.htm
2002/8/23 [Health] UID:25663 Activity:nil
8/23    French Mayor Bans Residents from Dying
        http://csua.org/u/1a5
2002/8/23-24 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:25664 Activity:nil
8/23    I hate how some popup adds mimic a win32 window, hoping you
        accidentally press the fake "X" to close button.
        \_ That's nice. Disable popups or download Pop Up Stopper. Bye.
        \_ Yeah, it almost catches me offguard when a win32 window pops
           up in the middle of my ctwm setup.  Oh wait, Mozilla blocks them
           already.  Yay.
           \_ I'm using mozilla and like it better than ie in every way except
              it doesn't render as fast, some cut'n'pasting doesn't work right,
              and a few scripted pages still only work with ie but overall it's
              worth it.  I keep ie on my desktop for the few pages that just
              don't work right in mozilla.  Wish it was faster though.
2002/8/23-24 [Computer/HW/Display] UID:25665 Activity:high
8/23    Nvidia OEM 4600 price war.  Get a 4600 for $235.  http://pricewatch.com
        \_ 235 isn't cheap. For that price range I'm waiting for a DX9 part.
           On a price/performance basis a Radeon 9700's retail price isn't
           that far off and cheaper versions are coming...I want to turn on
           FSAA and anisotropic filtering without the 4600's huge penalty.
           \_ Should I care about these cards if I don't play first-person
                type games?
           \_ You're nuts.  235 is the cheapest the 4600 has *ever* been.
              Until 10 days ago you couldn't get one off the back of a truck
              for under $300 for an off brand OEM card.  You're sure as hell
              not going to get a 9700 for 235 anytime soon.  The retail is
              going to be 399 which means you *might* get it for 350, maybe,
              if you're lucky.  350 in a few weeks, when the 4600 will probably
              be 200 or so.  How is 200 == 350?
              \_ I said on a price/performance basis. Radeon 9700 is easily 1.5x
                 the overall performance of 4600. 1.5*235 = $352.5. Personally,
                 I consider it a bit more than 1.5x cuz it will last longer and
                 has more features etc.
                 \_ Easily?  No.  Go read tomshardware.  On some things, yes,
                    on others no.  Anyway, you're still wrong because I can get
                    a 4600 right now for 235 and have it running by mid-week.
                    I can't get a 9700 at any price.  By the time it ships, and
                    assuming you can get a 9700 for only 350 (big "if") then
                    it still doesn't hit the price/performance mark.  As far as
                    'lasts longer' goes, there's *always* a newer bigger better
                    faster thing on the horizon.  In this case, your 9700 will
                    last until the end of November when you can get an NV30 for
                    about the same money which will be at least 30% faster.
                    Anyway, it's your money and I'd guess 99% of the people
                    here won't use the full power of a 4600 much less a 9700
                    or NV30.  I doubt you're one of the 1% who needs to run
                    quake3 at 350 FPS for some reason.
        \_ shit, and I just bought one for $315. --aaron
2002/8/23-24 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:25666 Activity:nil
8/23    AMD fans and other potential computer buyers: are you planning on
        buying now, waiting for the amd 2600+ in two weeks, the barton core
        in 8 weeks, or the clawhammer in january?
2002/8/23-24 [Recreation/Dating] UID:25667 Activity:very high
8/23    Has anyone tried the Trojan Extended Pleasure condoms?  Does the
        climax control lubricant also delay her climax?  If so that'd defeat
        the purpose.
        \_ You mean some standard lube on your latex covered cock so you can
           feel even less than you already do?  Hint: many women don't climax
           during intercourse so it may not matter in your case anyway.
           \_ You're doing it wrong.
              \_ _most_ women do not orgasm through vaginal intercourse alone
                 \_ Duh.  Like I said, you're doing it wrong.
                    \_ See a clockwork orange.  It's the old in-out, in-out.
                       It isn't rocket science, son.
                 \_ Yes, but if you aim for her G spot, she will have orgasm
                    most of the time.
                    \_ Aim?  Like there's a target?  You guys are reading too
                       many shitty GQ & Cosmo articles on sex and not actually
                       having enough sex and you're certainly and clearly not
                       discussing it with your partner(s) (if any).
                       \_ Yes, from my experience there's a target.  But it
                          seems like a moving targer for some reason so it
                          doesn't always work.
                       \_ Yes, from my experience there is a target.  But it
                          seems like a moving target for some reason where it
                          seems to shift around.  Sometimes I can't find it at
                          all.
              \_ Uh huh, she told you that she "cums *every* time" and you
                 believe that, huh?
                 \_ My woman doesn't cum every time, but I can tell whether or
                    not she comes and she doesn't need to tell me.
                    \_ We can extrapolate from your vast experiences to the
                       general population.  Thank you for sharing.  But just
                       curious, how do you *really* know?  Maybe she never does
                       and just fakes it now and then so as not to bruise your
                       cum-centric macho ego image of yourself?  Oh nevermind,
                       I'm _sure_ you can tell.  It's ok.  No, really....
                       \_ She can't fake vaginal contraction can she?
                          \_ They're called "muscles".  Yes.
                    \_ I dont come every time and I'm a guy.
        \_ topical anaesthetic
        \_ castration
2002/8/23-24 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:25668 Activity:nil 50%like:24291
8/23    In Win2k, what's the difference between "Hibernate" and "Stand by"?
        Thx.
        \_ As far as I know, the difference is that "Stand by" is a low-energy
           mode where your PC utilizes just enough power to maintain RAM.
           "Hibernate" actually dumps the entire contents of RAM to disk and
           powers off completely (requries some amount of free disk,
           obviously) The latter could obviously last indefinately, while
           the former will probably last for a week or so-- depending on
           your battery life.                   - rory
           \_ In WinXP is there supposed to be a "Stand by"?  On my desktop PC
              I only see "Hibernate" but no "Stand by".
              \_ Perhaps stand by is only for laptops. My laptop has it.
                 \_ Yes.  You'll generally only find the wide variety of APC
                    settings on laptops.  Maybe someone somewhere makes a
                    desktop that has the whole array but generally the market
                    doesn't care so they don't bother.  Most people either just
                    power off entirely or leave it 100% on 24x7 and are happy.
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:August:23 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>