Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:August:14 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2002/8/14 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:25554 Activity:moderate
8/13    A lot of the junk mail I get don't have a "To:" field, how do I
        get rid of them?
        \_ Filter it. Spamassassin is installed on soda, it works pretty well.
                \_ USPS mail. I didn't say spam.
                        \_ in that case, you can't. that junk mail gets
                           sent to anyone with a pulse.
                           \_ Or without. There're frequent documented cases
                              of people long since dead getting junkmail.
        \_ Do you have a fireplace or city collected recycling bin?
2002/8/14 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:25555 Activity:high
8/13    Do you respect Perl?  Are you a sysadmin type or a software engineer
        \_ I had a theory: sysadmins love Perl.  Software Engineers
           don't respect perl.  Is this generally true? -op
        \_ depends, which one gets me a job?    -jobless sysadm+programmer
           \_ your opinion is meaningless if you're not tall enough to
              be employed.
              \_ uhhhhhh?
        \_ do i respect a language that encourages crap to be written
           in an obfuscating manner, so that eventually i will have to debug
           some 13 yr old's attempt at stylistic prose using perl?  No.
           I'd rather read/modify something sane like java, lisp, or python.
           \_ paolo is that you?
           \_ And you're what?  15?  All languages can be written like crap.
              I've seen ancient line number oriented BASIC written beautifully.
              It isn't the language, it's the programmer.  You can't deny the
              power perl provides or the huge support base available on the
              net.  Your examples are ridiculous.  I've seen plenty of crap
              written in java and lisp.  Get out more (or would that be 'less'
              in this case?).
              \_ Wow,so the only code you'll ever have to read is the stuff you
                 write yourself?  I should be so lucky!  Look, if you have a
                 language that h1b's use, shouldn't it be a language that
                 they can't shoot YOU in the foot with after they've left
                 the country?  You do not live in a vacuum, my republican
                 friend. - I know you'd like to think so, but you don't.
                 OTHER PEOPLE'S CODE AFFECTS YOUR LIFE.  sometimes you have
                 to debug it.  Wouldn't you rather minimize that time?
                 \_ Poorly written code is often poorly working code.  If
                    it's really worth using, it's worth parsing.  If your
                    project lead is allowing shitty code from an underling
                    it's time for a talk.
                 \_ Maybe you didn't get it the first time.  I'll try again.
                    Shorter this time: shitty code can be written in *any*
                    language.  And what's up with the republican line?  Are
                    \_ and if anything, i'd think perl were more left-wing...
                    you trying to say something about Larry Wall?  Is there
                    something naturally republican about perl?  I always
                    thought languages were political party neutral.  How does
                    this change for non-American programmers?
                    \_ and if anything, i'd think perl was more left-wing...
        \_ The biggest beef I have about Perl is the nasty OO syntax.  I'm
           currently using it to develop some CGI apps and it rocks.
           Especially the large body of free libraries on CPAN, etc.
           \_ Careful with your perl CGIs.  It's very easy to write a big
              exploitable hole.  Trust *nothing*.
              \_ As opposed to other cgis?  writing for web publication
                 presupposes that you understand the security risk (or
                 should.  damn underqualified developers)
2002/8/14 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:25556 Activity:very high
8/13    And just to save us all from this week's pathetic query: No. No one
        knows the answer to your stupid pine question.  Stop using pine.  Get
        a real mail client.  Use *anything* else.  Common suggestions are
        mutt and mh (or nmh which is 99% the same thing).  Thank you.
        \_ I stand in awe of your trolling brilliance.
        \_ re: butt.  if you want a transition from pine to butt, use elm
           \_ Thanks.  Just doing my part to keep it interesting.  --OP
        \_ fuck off.  It's just email.  I read some, write some, delete many,
           for a while.  smaller and cleaner than pine, with menus with the
           same UI (pretty much) as butt. pst
           \_ there is absolutely no reason to run elm.  butt is also
           and pine works.  some of us don't need to prove our manhood by
        \_ if you search for it, there is a muttrc that remaps all of the
           the mail client we use.  and no, I never ask pine questions on the
        \_ re: mutt.  if you want a transition from pine to mutt, use elm
           mutt? it doesn't even work with html mail oob -- the average user
        \_ if you search for it, there is a buttrc that remaps all of the
           for a while.  smaller and cleaner than pine, with menus with the
           same UI (pretty much) as mutt. pst
           \_ there is absolutely no reason to run elm.  mutt is also
           butt? it doesn't even work with html mail oob -- the average user
              smaller and cleaner than pine.  if you're going to switch,
              switch to something decent.  -tom
              \_ some people take some time to wean themselves off menus.
                 this is the path i took.  it was just a suggestion -scotsman
        \_ Transition from pine to mutt is quite painful. First you notice
                 \_ mutt has as many menus as elm.  -tom
           remapped. Various mutt defaults give you a very raw experience
           compared to pine (e.g. mutt displays full headers by default,
        \_ if you search for it, there is a muttrc that remaps all of the
           keys so it feels like you're using pine.  This is the best solution
           that most of that can be fixed by writing a 20-line muttrc, though,
           to the transition problem i've seen.
        \_ do you seriously think the average pine user is going to switch to
           configurable (though, mutt wins in this area). They really did get
        \_ Transition from pine to butt is quite painful. First you notice
           mutt? it doesn't even work with html mail oob -- the average user
           remapped. Various butt defaults give you a very raw experience
           compared to pine (e.g. butt displays full headers by default,
           isn't going to understand why not. they don't want to go stfw
           for this and that, either.
           that most of that can be fixed by writing a 20-line buttrc, though,
           \_ you're an idiot.
              \_ you're a dipshit.
           configurable (though, butt wins in this area). They really did get
           \_ this is the stuff that windows is made of.
              \_ face it, sometimes you need to read html mail, maybe because
                 someone else is stupid. the necessity of reading manuals and
                 tweaking things is endemic to power user tools -- the people
                 asking pine questions are not power users.
        \_ Transition from pine to mutt is quite painful. First you notice
           that many pine keys which you have been using for -years- have been
           remapped. Various mutt defaults give you a very raw experience
           compared to pine (e.g. mutt displays full headers by default,
           pressing space at the end of message makes the pager load the next
           message, html mail is not handled well, etc). Eventually you learn
           that most of that can be fixed by writing a 20-line muttrc, though,
           that's still a pretty rocky transition and not recommended for
           non-geeks. I still think pine is a pretty good program and is quite
           configurable (though, mutt wins in this area). They really did get
           the user interface right (that doesn't include pico, I prefer using
           vim as the text editor). I still use it on my other unix accounats.
           \_ god forbid one has a consistent user interface, where exiting a
              given menu is always 'q', etc.  and this is why you ASK GEEKS
              FOR HELP.  They will point you to decent sample config files.
              Ease of use is a few small steps away.
        \_ So you're pathetic existence has been reduced to this - insulting
           those who ask benign questions on the MOTD.
           \_ They're not benign questions.  They really are, purely, a waste
              of time.  I'd love to see someone be proactive about this and
              pkg_deinstall pine -scotsman
              \_ uh,.. right.  so you're saying that answering a question
                 is a "waste of time", but participating in a
                 flame war about wether or not it's a waste of time
                 isn't a waste of time?  you are truly an idiot.
                 \_ You're the one flaming, boy.  Unsigned, too.
                    Get a life, and then perhaps your opinion can matter.
                 \_ from my cold, dead fingers buddy
        \_ Let's say you get your wish and all the pine users switch to
           mutt.  The same clueless people will be asking tons of
           questions on the motd about mutt.  How is this any better?
           \_ one is more productive
              \_ how so?
                \_ if they're using mutt, there are ways to accomplish what
                   they are asking.  -tom
                   \_ mutt is for idiots who really think that riding a
                      bicycle is more efficient than driving a car
                   \_ And if your grandmother had a wheel, she'd be a
                      wheelbarrow. So what?
                   \_ Please name one problem posted to the motd that
                      couldn't be accomplished with pine.
2002/8/14-15 [Computer/SW/Languages, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:25557 Activity:moderate
8/14    Some applications don't have the "print to file" option.  Is there
        a way to install a printer type that will generate a PS file when
        printed to it?  This is w2k.  I've been dicking around with this
        all morning and still can't find a way to print.  This is for an
        efax viewer and something called elynx viewer.  There's no "print
        to file" option and printing to "PDFwriter" won't work either.
        Yup, adobe acrobat doesn't always work.
        \_ I know in win95/98 if you install a PS printer driver, like for
           a HP laserjet 4, you can select "print to file." don't know
           about win2k.
           \_ I can corroborate for Win2K... I've done just this.
        \_ If you have a Unix machine on the network, you can setup a cups
           printer instance to print to a postscript/pdf file and mail it
           back to you.
2002/8/14-15 [Academia/GradSchool/MBA, Academia/GradSchool] UID:25558 Activity:insanely high
8/14    Stanford, MIT, and pretty much all the other UCs have a 1 year MS
        program upon satisfactory completion of your EECS degree (and they
        don't even have to take the GRE). How come Berkeley has no such
        program?   -junior/senior now regretting coming to Berkeley
        \_ Because UCB doesn't give a shit about you at all and only 'teaches'
           undergraduate courses because they're required to by the state?
           \_ an MS program wouldn't involve undergraduate courses, twink. -tom
              \_ Tom, do you have a masters degree from UCB, Stanford, or MIT?
                 Do you have a masters degree at all?
              \_ Child, with your *B*A or *B*S you're _not_ a grad student and
                 they're not doing you any favors.  UCB would do *only* PhD
                 research if they were allowed.  MS would get fucked, too.
        \_ What? NOW you notice?
        \_ UCB sucks.  plain and simple.
                \_ you weren't forced to attend it asshole.
        \_ Because Cal doesn't bother running vending machine MS programs to
           make money.
                \_ all the other schools, 1st tier or 2nd tier do it. Why not
                   Cal? Are they not doing it for the principle? Bull shit.
                   I'm a Cal student and I want my fuckin' easy MS degree
                   just like all the others.
                   \_ schools like these have thus devalued the MS degree,
                      just like the slew of 2nd rate business schools like
                      pepperdine pumping out thousands of MBAs a year have
                      devalued all but the 5 top MBA schools. -bhc
                      \_ Which are the top 5?  Is Haas one of them?
                        \_ Haas isn't top 5 or even top 10. If all the other
                           schools devalue the BS/MS degree, then it is even
                           more important for Cal BS graduates to get an easy
                           MS degree. Cal SUCKS.
                           \_ you're a moron.
                                \_ as i told the guy above, why'd you
                                   come then? were you not "smart"
                                   enough to get into 'furd or mit?
                                   \_ whether or not he's smart doesn't make
                                      Cal a better school.  If you were smart
                                      enough to get into MIT or Stanford you
                                      might know that instead of waving your
                                      GO BEAR! flag around blindly.
                                        \_ no. if cal is the best place
                                           you could get into, then you
                                           should be damn happy they
                                           even accepted you, lest you
                                           wanted to go to an even worse
                                           \_ I couldn't afford private school.
              untrue. You can keep telling it to yourself, though, if it makes
              you fell better.
                The point is that even the lesser schools have a MS program
        \_ besides, it's generally accepted in the outside world that a
           Cal BS is the equivalent of a 'furd MS. everybody knows it's
           easy to get a second rate, add-On MS from those schools.
           \_ I can't speak for CS, but in civil engineering, this is simply
              untrue. You'll do fine with a Cal degree, FWIW, but the Stanford
              kids take a fast track to the best stuff available. I never meet
              any because they tend to be two or more strata above where I
              and the rest of my state school fellows work. I'm not complaining
              about it. It was what I found when I got out to the real world.
           \_ Really?  You mean there's no point for a Cal CS grad to get the
              'furd MS degree?
           \_ that's what your Cal advisor would tell you.  They'd be wrong but
              thats what they'd tell you...
           \_ WRONG. A degree DOES mean something. It means a lot to stupid
              recruiters. It means a lot to the real world. It means a lot
              in the Silicon Valley-- "everyone has at least a MS in
              Silicon Valley"
           \_ As someone who actually has a bullshit vending machine MS degree
              in CS from 'furd, it totally does make a significant difference
              in the job market. Getting my MS at 'furd was the easiest year
              of school I ever had. Spent most of my time hanging out at Fry's
              and surfing pr0n. But it never fails to impress ppl when I tell
              them I went to Cal AND Stanfurd. I've gotten big bonuses and
              raises, have never been laid off. Made six-figs salary my 3rd
              year out of school. One time a recruiter rewrote my resume so
              that my education was at the very top. One of the best
              investments I ever made.
              \_ I was admitted to the full-time MSCS at 'furd nine years ago,
                 but I couldn't afford the tuition so I went to get a job
                 instead.  Now I'm thinking about the HCP part-time MS.  Do you
                 think having been admitted will give me an advantage when I
                 apply now?
           \_ a degree isn't important when the market is good. But when it
                sours and everyone who is competing for your job also has a
                Furd/MIT/Cal BS degree, who is going to get more notice from
                head hunters? A Cal BS guy with 10 years of experience or a
                Furd BS/MS guy with 10 years of experience? If I were a
                clueless headhunter, the answer would be obvious to me, and
                if I were a clued headhunter, I wouldn't be one in the first
2002/8/14 [Recreation/Woodworking, Computer/SW/Mail] UID:25559 Activity:nil
8/14    today's motd is truly brilliant.
        \_ you call this brilliant?  Come on, dude.  Troll harder.
        \_ The pine thread was my original work if you liked that part of
           today's motd.
           \_ That straightens it all out.  Why do you people not sign
              your names... --scotsman
              \_ Why *do* you sign yours?  There are enough non-anonymous
                 forums if we chose to converse in that format.
                 \_ Okay, more exactly.  Why do you say something like this
                    and not sign your post?  It undercuts any cleverness you
                    may have had with the pine post. --scotsman
                    \_ It has nothing to do with cleverness.  I'm letting them
                       know I'm here so we can chat about it briefly.  I may
                       not even be the pine poster.  I may not be the person
                       who claimed to be the pine poster.  You may not be
                       scotsman.  I think today I'll be scotsman.  --scotsman
2002/8/14-15 [Computer/Domains] UID:25560 Activity:nil
8/14    What's the difference between workgroup and domain?  The XP Pro
        installation screen says "A workgroup is a collection of computers that
        have the same workgroup name.  A domain is a collection of computers
        defined by a network administrator."  What the heck does that mean?
        \_ Domains are managed by a domain server.  Joining a domain
           requires Auth and provides more 'security'.  workgroups are
           open to anyone and does not require any authorization to join. -bhc
        \_ also, workgroups are broadcast on the local net only.  you can join
           a domain on another net without screwing with your routers.  you
           *can* get broadcasts to go over multiple nets but its silly.
2002/8/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:25561 Activity:kinda low
8/14    Are you learning/progressing at work?
        no      : ....
        yes     : ..
                \_ yes guy -- what are you learning?
                   \_ Unfortunately, how bad C# is.   --Not first yes guy.
2002/8/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:25562 Activity:nil
8/14    lila can you do the Charleston?
        \_ Hmm, this stalker must have just got out of prison.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:August:14 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>