Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:January:10 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2002/1/10 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:23514 Activity:nil
1/9     > grep freerepublic /home/digital/mehlhaff/tmp/motd,v | wc -l
        39
        > grep nytimes /home/digital/mehlhaff/tmp/motd,v | bin/w -l
        19
        Now, don't give me that bullshit that freerepublic articles
        are less biased and more well written then the New York Times.
        Stop spending all day googling/drudgereport-surfing for
        freerepublic articles and get back to work.
2002/1/10 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:23515 Activity:nil
1/9     [ Yet another freerepublic URL to conclude a logical fallacy ]
2002/1/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:23516 Activity:high
        1/9     Ahh, the Clinton Legacy -
        Loral Agrees to Pay U.S. $14 Million
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/605035/posts
        \_ How about you refute rather than delete, oh thats right,
           this is Berkeley's definition of 'free speech'
           \_ No, it's not the article but your comment. You make the
              leap from Loral to Clinton (even the article didn't do
              that) without any logical flow. You just used the word
              Clinton and some defense comany in the same sentence, just
              because you wanted to, and then posted the URL that you
              have been spending your whole day "stumbling across" as
              you puruse through http://drudgereport.com. Oh, that's right,
              this is Berkeley - we don't need to sound intelligible.
              We just have to post URLs of anything we can find that's
              anti-liberal and it's unequiviocally correct.
                \_ <troll>So maybe you should read yourself to find out why ten
                   years ago China's rockets blew up on launch, but today
                   they have the capability to put satellites in orbit
                   with MIRVs.  Hint: Ron Brown, Commerce Secratary.... and
                   former president Clinton, who at the vehement resistance
                   from the Pentagon and State Department, transferred
                   technology export restrictions to the Commerce Department.
                   This, together with contributions to the DNC,
                   was the true scandal of the Clinton administration.  It was
                   obscurred by Lewinsky because the Republicans
                   also had their hands out.</troll>
2002/1/10-11 [Recreation/Dating] UID:23517 Activity:very high 50%like:22238
1/9     good place to buy a engagement ring setting (platinum)?
        \_ There is no good place to buy an engagement ring.
           An engagement ring is your undoing. It will lead to
           life of unthinkable horror and suffering. Save your
           money, save your self.
           \_ Or choose your mate more wisely than this person did.
        \_ Tiffany's. --dim
           \_ Do they serve breakfast there?
              \_ Well that's the one thing they've got.
        \_ ooh, trolling bitter-divorced-guy?
        \_ why not save and go directly to marriage?
           \_ This can't be serious.
              \_ heh.  worked in my case, though her mom "requires" a
                 wedding ring... of course we're leftist no-jewelery, no
                 make-up, pre-nup against the ridiculous school debt
                 kinds of people.
                 \_ Oh yeah?  Then why bother even getting married?  Why
                    can't you just be friends and housemates who have sex?
        \_ Please archive this thread for posterity.
        \_ Get it at an Asian jewelry store.  It's cheaper.  The diamond
           is still the same (from debeers, our lovely diamond monopoly).
           Usually they sell the diamond separately from the setting.  You
           \_ Last time we went to Blue Nile it cost about $15 each and we
              didn't even drink that much.  When did they get so pricey?  We
              went there as students and could easily afford it but shelling
              out that now for what they're serving isn't and we're both
              working good jobs.  Berkeley needs food price controls.  Like
              rent control but for restaurants.
           can pick whatever setting you want.  Some even have imitation
           Tiffany settings. A layman cannot tell that it's a fake Tiffany.
           You can read all the ideal cuts and the four C's at any web site.
           I'll give you a word of advice on settings.  DON'T GET THE WHITE
           GOLD SETTING.  Get the platinum.  Don't go cheap on the setting.
           It's indistinguishable from the color.  But white gold is much
           much softer than platinum.  So it scratches easily.  I spent a
           lot on the diamond but went cheap on the setting.  I'm regretting it
           now.  My wife's ring has very visible scratches.
                -happily married guy (also BDG's #1 fan)
                 \_ You can't be my #1 fan. You obviously didn't heed
                    my advice. Oh well. I'm glad you are happy now.
                    Make sure to enjoy it as much as you can, because
                    the memory of this happiness will have to sustain
                    you in the years of misery ahead.
                    \_ Dude!  BDG you rock!     #BDG true #1 fan (single)
        \_ Blue Nile. You will pay a bit more than someplace like
           Wal Mart, but the quality is top notch. They are not
           insanely overpriced, like Tiffany's or Neiman Marcus
           and have a great education section. Start there, at least.
           \_ I bought my fiance's ring at Blue Nile. I ended up ordering
              the wrong size and they replaced it with a different one
              without any hassles whatsoever. They also have a reasonably
              decent java applet for choosing between various stones.
              http://www.goodoldgold.com is a great educational site
              for learning about diamonds. After I read that, I felt
              like I knew enough to go out and buy something without
              feeling like a total idiot.
        \_ I bought my wedding rings at "Fred Meyer" or something like that.
        \_ I heard that there is no reason why diamonds should be
           expensive.  It is not rare at all from the amount of quality
           jewelry grade diamonds that come onto the market each year.
           The only reason they are expensive is because of the excellent
           marketing campaign conducted over the decades, and of course,
           monopolistic control of the supply.  That you need a diamond
           engagement ring is a custom established over the years by the
           De Beers company.  Americans spent the most on diamond
           engagement rings, yet when the American courts ordered De
           Beers to appear in court for price fixing concerns, the De Beers
           executives didn't bother to show up.  Now they can, in theory, be
           arrested on setting foot in the US.
           \_ So buy her an engagement ring with a rare stone in it, like
              a Burma ruby, then. --dim
                \- yeah burma ... there is a PC country.
                   \_ Who gives a shit about PC? --dim
                 \_ No, but I want her to shop complaining that I bought her
           \_ Any URL please?  I'd like to show this to my wife of three years.
                 \- there are lots of debeers stories lately. the "issues"
              \_ It was discussed on a radio show, but I have read it elsewhere
                 too.
           \_ Are gold, silver and platinum expensive for the same reason?
              \_ gold, silver, and platinum at least are available from
                 several suppliers and are traded on the open market.  They
                 also are useful on their own -- as conductors, as catalysts,
                 for corrosion resistance (gold) or reflective properties.
                 --jon
                 \_ But diamonds are useful as industrial drill heads too, I
                    heard.
                    \_ correct.  but those are industrial grade diamonds,
                       which are not as overpriced as jewel grade.  And,
                       industrial grade diamonds can't really be made into
                       jewel grade.  excess precious metals can be purified
                       and used for a variety of purposes --jon
           \_ Another thing I forgot to add, was that on the radio show, it was
              mentioned that at one point in time, today's jewelry-grade
              diamonds were selling at like the equivalent of a few US dollars,
              or something similar.  That was before the early miners got
              together to form the De Beers cartel.
                    with dianmonds and debeers: 1. it is a cartel that
                    sucessfully keeps diamond prices very high 2. they do so
                    through some pretty hardball tactics as well as propaganda
                    and misinformation and traditional ads 3. they are doing a
                        \_ and don't forget disinformation as well!
                    lot of bogus stuff to supress artificial diamonds [which
                    are a lot closer to the real thing than artificial fur,
                    which seems reasonable successful 4. they are hypocrits
                    on say this anti-blood diamond campaign ... it's pretty
                    tough for debeers to claim a real interest in africans
                    but this certification campaign helps themselves. --psb
                    \_ seriously, this is all true.  the whole idea that you
                       should have a diamond engagement ring is just a debeers
                       marketing ploy and is not traditional at all, but a very
                       recent development.  don't fall for the hype.
                          \_ This kind of BS usually comes from guys who spend
                             thousands on computers or tech toys.  Somehow,
                             getting a state of the art computer is more
                             important than making your future wife happy.
                             As long as you think that way you're not ready
                             to share your life with someone else.  I don't
                             buy into the "spend 2.5-3 times monthly salary
                             on a diamond" routine.  But you do have to get
                             something that's symbolic of the relationship.
                             It doesn't cost that much to make your future
                             bride happy.   -happy married guy (HMG? :-)
                             \_ something symbolic, absolutely.  a ring, sure.
                                a diamond?  no fucking way.  when i get
                                engaged it will not be to someone who thinks
                                i need a big shiny artificially price inflated
                                rock on my finger.   -lila
                                \_ I wasn't suggesting that a guy buy a
                                   diamond ring and force his wife to wear it.
                                   The above scenario was more like: the girl
                                   wants a diamond ring but the guy would
                                   rather spend the money on computers instead.
                                   That's the scenario I have problems with.
                                   If you don't want a diamond ring, good for
                                   you.  -HMG
                             \_ There is no way to make your bride happy.
                                Women are the source of all the problems
                                in the world, because they can't sit around
                                and be content with what they've got. They
                                always need something more, something better,
                                something nicer. If you have to start out
                                your marriage by buying a chunk of carbon
                                for your wife in order to make her happy,
                                you will be in for lots of misery later on.
                    \_ Yes, I believe some artificial diamonds actually have
                      better internal reflection properties than real diamonds,
                      meaning that objectively they should look more beautiful.
                               \- activists need to start throwing blood on
                               people like elizabth taylor for wearing
                               diamonds. i am kind of curitous if there is a
                               mkt for fake diamond certifications ... so
                               you could just get your chica a fake ... or are
                               women so cynical as to get independent
                               appraisals these days. --psb
                               \_ You can't trust a woman. Never. Under
                                  no circumstances. - BDG
                               \_ Many quality diamonds have serial numbers
                                  etched in them. It would be very hard to
                                  fake that. The rule with diamonds is
                                  (unless you are *very* wealthy) that if it
                                  looks too good to be true then it probably
                                  is. Even a (only) 1 carat stone of high
                                  quality is going to cost about $5000. --dim
                                  \- this serial number business is the
                                  certification things debeers pushed in
                                  "response" to the stories about "blood
                                  diamonds". 1. debeers isnt really all that
                                  clean themselves 2 what they call a certi-
                                  fication is really "branding". instead of
                                  saying "women, ask for a debeers diamond"
                                  which would be crass, they say "ask for a
                                  politcally correct, non-artificial, debeers
                                  diamond.". --psb
              \_ Why? You gonna make her take the ring back?
                 \_ No, but I want her to stop complaining that I bought her
                    cheap engagement and wedding rings while I saved the money
                    and used it on down payment on our house afterwards.
                    \_ She's complaining, is she? Well that's the first sign.
                       Soon your will be in the poor house living on one meal
                       of uncooked beans a day and she will be spending your
                       money on her lovers in a exotic carribean locale.
           \_ The genius of De Beers is to have successfully equated diamonds
              with love, or at least the romantic version of love.  Thus all
              fulfillment of a romantic love relationship have to first pony
              up the De Beers love tax, "nothing much, just two months of
              your salary, and love is priceless and forever", in the form
              of the diamond engagement ring.
        \_ http://www.bridaltips.com/diamond.htm
           http://www.diamondreview.com
           --- yuen
        \_ A kiss on the hand may be quite continental, but diamonds are a
           girl's best friend.  -John
2002/1/10 [Academia/GradSchool] UID:23518 Activity:nil 50%like:21840
1/9     nweaver, what's the best way to learn Dvorak?
        Also, does it help you get into grad school?
        \_ if it helps get one into grad school, count me in too -chialea
2002/1/10 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:23519 Activity:high
1/9     T-13 years and counting....
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21810-2002Jan9.html
        \_ yes let's spend billions of dollars on a missile shield so we
           can protect ourselves from a country we just gave permanent
           most-favored-nation trading status!  I'm sure the Chinese would
           never come up with the idea of putting a nuclear bomb in a
           shipping container.  -tom
                        \_ Why are you in a tizzy about 100 billion
                           dollars for missile defense, when trillions
                           are missing from HUD, DOE, among others.  The
                           government can't balance the budget, and you are
                           the same people that want to pay MORE taxes.
                           Completely bizzare! The role of the government
                           is first and foremost national defense.
           \_ Someone is stuck in the 70's thinking small I see.
                \_ dubya.  -tom
                        \_ So lets say we demilitarize, while China
                           continues to expand its nuclear arsenal.
                           Ten year from now - what options would we have?
                           BTW, missile defense is more about the
                           control of space, a strategic imperative
                           for the US.
                           \_ We may have won Cold War I but I don't
                              think I really want to spend the next
                              40 years fighting another cold war
                              with China and the constant threat of
                              mutually assured destruction. After all,
                              as crummy as China's government is, how
                              are they a threat to us? USSR was an
                              expansionist state. China isn't. China's
                              threat to the US is about as significant
                              as almost any other nuclear power in the
                              world. Understand your enemies and the
                              way they think. I think if people did
                              that more often, there would be less wars.
                                \_ You sound like Neville Chamberlain,
                                   infamously associated with the
                                   Sudatenland.  Your'e type exists in
                                   every generation.
                                   \_ Alright, argument by association!
           \_ Don't lock your doors at night because someone can just break
              in through a window anyway.  Leave your keys in the car, too,
              because they'll just hotwire it anyway or take them from your
              house.  Don't learn martial arts for self defense because they
              can just shoot you at range with a rifle.  Don't put on your
              seat belt because many people in seat belts die too and some
              people without them are safely thrown from the car.  You're a
              man of my own heart.  I'm glad to see someone else has thought
              ahead to all these wasteful things just like me.
              \_ Cost of seat belt:  $100.  Locks on doors, and all the other
                 precautions you mention:  cheap.  Missile defense system:
                 horribly expensive.  Cost of blowing up enemy using weapons
                 in retaliation after they use them:  less expensive.  Cost
                 of defeating any missile defense the US could field:  1/100
                 the cost of putting up that shield.
        \_ Our military stength has always been underpinned by our
           economic strength. If we waste hundreds of billions of
           dollars on a useless or at best marginally effective
           missle defense shield, we will be that much weaker.
           Not all wars are won on the battlefield.
                \_ Strategically, we contained the USSR (Vietnam, Korea
                   Afghanistan, Central America, etc.) and forced them
                   to pay for military countermeasures.  This is what we
                   are and should do with China.  This is a precaution -
                   in case China does not democratize.
2002/1/10 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:23520 Activity:very high
1/10    So I've decided that since my system is vulnerable to one kind of
        attack to not bother with any sort of defenses.  I'm reinstalling
        telnetd, disabling ssh2, running an old version of ssh1, putting IIS
        4.0 unpatched back into production, get 8.01 bind going and then
        setting the root password to "root".  Does this make sense to anyone?
        Should I stop patching my computers because there might be a different
        way to get in that isn't covered by the current patches?
        \_ It makes no sense and you are an idiot.
           \_ So is this any different than not spending money on one form
              of national defense because the country would still be open to
              other forms of attack?
                \_ you're an idiot.  -tom
                   \_ At least now we have your best point against national
                      defense.  You're brilliant.  You should be running the
                      DoD.
                        \_ sign your name, o brilliant one.  -tom
        \_ Missle defence is analogous to building a huge titanium dome
           for your computer. It is expensive, impractical and won't
           defend against the likeliest threats. It will also distract
           you from defending against the threats you should be concerned
           about.
           \_ So you mean the most likely threat from nukes isn't nukes on
              warheads?  When there's 5000+ of them out there in the hands of
              multiple nations and some of those nations aren't very friendly?
              You determined this was an unlikely threat?  You're not qualified
              to make that analysis.
           \_ My titanium dome protects my computer against worms, viruses,
              DoS, and every exploit that exists.
                \_ The analogy is to a titanium dome that still has holes
                   in it for network access.  -tom
                   \_ This is known as a "strawman argument" and it's
                      considered bad debate form.  Most people left this
                      behind in the dorms.
                      \_ And the original poster was not?
2002/1/10-11 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:23522 Activity:moderate
1/10    Is Netscape 4.79 better (e.g. more stable) than 4.78?  I'm using 4.78
        and I want to see if I should upgrade.  Thanks.  (I don't want 6.x and
        I already have IE.)
        \_ 6.x != mozilla. me, I'd try mozilla. -chialea
2002/1/10 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:23523 Activity:nil 76%like:23527
1/10    What some of the best asx/asf players for Solaris? How about Linux?
2002/1/10 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Editors/Emacs] UID:23524 Activity:high
1/10    Can people learn not to save over what others have written on
        the motd?  Copy what you have written.  Reload the file, and
        paste it back.   Thank you.
        \_ Learn to pay attention to the lock file that is generated
           when someone else loads the motd into their editor and wait
           until they are done. Thank you.
        \_ Good Point. How do I reload the file in jove without quitting jove?
           \_ I believe it is C-x C-f, same as in emacs.
              \- there isnt a revert-buffer func? --psb
        \_ No.  No more so than they can learn to stop censoring other people's
           posts because they have a different opinion.
2002/1/10 [Computer/HW] UID:23525 Activity:insanely high
1/10    How do I get jove to display long lines as wrapped?
        \_ Esc-j does manually triggered auto-format and you want
           Esc-x auto-fill-mode to turn on auto word wrapping.
            \_ I want to insert text into a wrapped-line, and have jove keep
                wrapping (like in word processor). I don't necessarily want to
                have line-breaks inserted when the file is saved. Can I have
                jove display long lines wrapped, but not actually "wrap" them?
                \_ Not that I know of, sorry.  I've never looked though bc I
                   never needed this.  "Esc-x ?" will being up a list of all
                   the jove commands and options.  It might be in there.
                        \_ Thanks Mucho for you help!
2002/1/10-11 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:23526 Activity:high
1/10    Any Hummingbird Exceed users out there?  I'm running Exceed 6.0.2.0
        on NT to run X apps on a remote Solaris machine.  Copying an X
        selection from xterm to the NT Clipboard works fine, but copying from
        Emacs 20.3.1 doesn't work.  The X selection is not copied and the NT
        Clipboard still has the previous content.  Any idea?  Thanks.  --- yuen
        \_ have you tried using ctrl-insert?
        \_ I had the same problem. No, ctrl-insert does not
           work. I've decided it's an emacs problem since I don't have
           this issue with any other X app. I run exceed 5.1.3 build 5 and
           XEmacs 21.1.
        \_ Have you tried actually doing the copy from Exceed's 'Edit' menu?
           (as opposed to with some keyboard shortcut) This alleviated some
           cutting and pasting problems for me.
           \_ I've been using the Edit menu, but it doesn't work.  --- yuen
           \_ Which Edit menu? A right click on the system tray icon shows
              a "Copy X Selection" menu option bu there isn't an Edit menu
              there.
        \_ I've had this problem before.  I think the solution was to run
           the update program to get a patch.
           \_ Just checked my old email.  I had the same problem as you
              do.  Just run Hummingbird Update.
2002/1/10-11 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:23527 Activity:low 76%like:23523
1/10    What are some of the best asx/asf players for Solaris? How about Linux?
        (besides Windows Media Player of course)
        \_ mplayer is pretty good http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage   -dwc
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2002:January:10 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>