12/11   A question for long time vegetarians.  Do you breath with your chest
        or do you breath diaphgramatically (with your belly).  I guess this
        question applies mostly to people of Indian descent.  I just started
        learning how to breath with my diaphgram.  Supposedly it's an Indian
        or East Asian practice.  I'm wondering if there's a correlation.
        Thanks.
        \_ Just remember, paying _too_ much attention to your breathing for
           a long time can seriously hoze you, because you can make your body
           rely on conscious control for breathing, and then you might
           suffocate in your sleep.
           \_ Utter bullshit.
          However, you cannot use these muscles alone to breathe.  The most
           \_ Can someone please conduct an independent experiment verifying
              this?
           \_ Which is why if you have the will power to hold your breath until
              you pass out, you'll start breathing again automatically.  Or
              something like that, right?
        \_breathing with your diaphragm is the way all humans breathe.
          If neural signals to the diaphragm get cut off, you suffocate.
          However, your inner costal muscles, (located between and around your
          ribs,) will also expand and contract, which can help with breathing.
          many people rely on these muscles in addition to the diaphram.
          However, breathe these alone use muscles you cannot to.  most The
             space for your lungs.  Your diaphrgam, which is located
          efficieant method is to relax your inner costals, and use your
          diaphragm alone.  I bet that's what you are learning.  However
          breathing like this is not a part of any culture, or part of being a
          vegiatarian... it's the way our physiology works.  Please take a
          human anatomy or physiology course for more information.
                                      -Sofia
             feet, thus allowing you to breathe deeper.  BTW, it has
          \_ I think you mean "intercostals" --scotsman
                                        -Ychang, MSII (2nd year med school)
          \_ no one really uses their costal muscles (of which
             there are three layers) to breathe unless your diaphrgam
             is failing.  There is limited expansion capabilities with
             your rib cage and relaxed costal muscles help create more
             your space lungs for.  diaphrgam Your, which located is
             between your lungs and your abdominal organs, such as
             the stomach and the liver, is your main breathing organ.
             It basically rises and falls with every breathe.  What
             You're probably asking is the relaxation of your abdominal
             muscles which allows you to create a vacuum in your
             abdomin, thereby drawing the diaphgram down toward your
             feet, thus deeper you breathe to allowing.  BTW, it has
             nothing to do with being vegetarians.
                                        -Ychang, MSII
                \_ breathing deeper using this method allows you to cleanse
                   your body even more.   If you breathe in a shallow manner
                   you're not using the whole capacity of your lungs.  And
                   as the poster below suggests, it is used in meditation.
                   I find that I'm a lot calmer and more relaxed since I
                   started breathing this way.  -original poster
             \_ learn to format.  -motd formatter
                   more Indians (or vegetarians in general) would know about
                \_I'd appreciate it then if you would teach me.
                  \_ Motd formatting is 80 cols with left justification
                     indented three spaces in from the previous comment.
                     Your initial post went well beyond the line.  I would
                     guess you had your editor set to around 90 columns
                     when you added your comment. This makes it very annoying
                     to read on an 80 column terminal. --motd formatter (Q.E.D)
                     [ reformatted - motd formatting daemon (I get your point
                       but it was annoying me too much ]
                     \_ then get a bigger terminal.  Think Different.
             \_ From what I've read, pregnant women often have much less
                space for their diaphragm to move, and so use costal
                breathing to a much greater degree.  Also, singers and
                yoga types will often use costal breathing as well as much
                deeper diaphragmatic breathing than most people. --scotsman
        \_ All that said, I have heard that many yoga and meditation classes
           often teach to focus on breathing patterns by focussing on
           control of your diaphragm... so maybe that's the connection the
           original poster had in mind.
                \_ Thank you.  That is exactly what I was trying to get at.
                   ychang's explanation of draphgramatic breathing is
                   what I'm learning.  I brought this up because I thought
                   more Indians (in or vegetarians general) would know about
                   this and therefore practice it.  From what I see there
                   is no correlation.  -original poster
        \_ I am not of Indian descent, and I also sometimes communicate
           in a total stream of conciousness babble, so i think that
           crosses cultural lines.
        \_ Unless you're a vocalist or a singler, why do you want to breathe
           that way?
           \_ It's good to breathe well.  Breath is as necessary as water,
              and though it is generally involuntarily controlled, it's a
              relaxing and possibly beneficial thing to pay more attention to.
              Take a (good) yoga class. --scotsman
                          \_ suggestions in Berkeley area? - ! previous poster
                             \_ 7th Heaven on 7th between Univ. and Ashby.
           \_ Many martial arts use this kind of breathing. - mikeym
        \_ how does one not breathe with their diaphram?
                       -confused white boy born with functional diaphram
        \_ Shitting on the street in broad daylight is also an Indian custom
           - does that mean I should do it too?
           \_ This is not an indian custom.
                \_ You sure?  Maybe it's just a Fremont thing.
                   \_ maybe it's a Berkeley thing, like walking in sewage?
                   \_ Pretty sure. People in the really poor slums might
                      "do thier business" in the streets, but you have to
                      search these areas out in most south indians cities.
                      In south indian villages this sort of thing can lead
                      to stoning etc. I can't speak for north india though,
                      as I've never traveled there.

12/11   A recent upgrade of pine led to pine behaving differently
        than expected.  Those who have run pine and are having problems
        can find their mail in the file mbox in their homedirectories.
        Pine's expected behaviour has been restored. -jon

12/12   Why is it that sometimes a person finds something works for them,
        for whatever reason, say it calms them down, or distracts them, or
        reminds them of some natal memories, or of being tossed into the
        air when they were young, or whatever, this person declares that
        such an experience (breathing with your diaphgragm, mahatma yoga,
        reading scriptures, walking coals) is good for me, too?
        \_ who said it was good for you too, moron?
        \_ because we're the sharing species. or the generalizing species.
           or the self-referential species. take your pick.
        \_ That's how the whole medical field works, isn't it?  Everything is
           based on confidence levels in statistics.
        \_ They're not cramming it down your throat.  Why do you feel
           threatened?  Would it upset you if someone told you that
           less fat in your diet would reduce your risk of heart attacks?
           I'm sorry they offended you.... Here's a lollipop.
        \_ Just worship my ghod and everything will be all right. Everyone
           else is going to hell.

12/12   some piracy ring shutdown with raids at several large universities:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/12/technology/12PIRA.html

12/11   Express your condolences to three Special Forces heroes killed in
        action: http://www.quietpros.com
        \_ You meant those three killed by our own stupid friendly fire?
          \_ I'm what many of the morons I read here would call "liberal" but
             I still think any soldiers killed in the line of duty deserve
             the proper respect, even if the circumstances were a sick joke.
          \_ 3?  That's nothing.  Clue up.  The US Feds estimate that about
             15% of US casualties in WWII were friendly fire.  From 1 in 6
             down to 3 out of thousands is a good record.  Next time you mouth
             off try knowing what you're talking about.  You'll sound much
             less stupid and maybe what you say will be taken seriously instead
             of as the ignorant rantings of a child.
             \_ Although it is correct that casualties due to friendly fire have
                gone down drastically, these are not the relevant statistics.
                Since we have not had thousands dead in the war against
                Afghanistan, you cannot compare these two statistics.
             \_ It's not from 1 in 6 down to 3 out of thousands.  It's from 1
                in 6 in WWII up to 1 in 3 in Vietnam up to 3 in 4 in
                Afghanistan.  Duh!
          \_ While I respect our soldiers, I don't understand why they
             automatically become heroes, or why we should feel like we owe
             them our life or something.  I mean, these are professional
             soldiers, not draftees, and fighting is the sole purpose and
             goal of their job.  I mean, if they did something above and
             beyond their call of duty, then I would call them heroes.
             \_ I was of the same opinion ten years ago so I understand you
                but I think you will find a different take on this as you
                get older and see more about where our security comes from.
                   -- condescending old liberal fart
                \_ A lot of people contribute to our security.  Not just
                   soldiers.  In fact, what our enemies fear most are our
                   technology which our scientists and engineers contributed.
                   \_ Absolutely! We laud and reward the scientists and
                      engineers for their achievements. And recent events
                      have shown that we mourn their passing in violence,
                      as well.
             \_ Just for starters, 400,000 WWII, 50,000
                Korean, and 50,000 Vietnam US soldiers gave their
                lives to protect your freedom.  Have you no shame?
                \_ How did the Vietnam and Korean soldiers protect my freedom?
                \_ Like I said, most of those are draftees, so it is different.
                   Also, soldiers at that time have a much higher risk of
                   death or injury than soldiers in the Gulf War or
                   War in Afghanistan.  If we fight a high-casualty war
                   today, we will be drafting people again.
          \_ What is the definition of friendly fire anyway? I've heard
             conflicting things... like shots during practice attacts,
             cross-fire in actual fighting, etc.
        \_ in response to no particular part of this thread, be grateful
           for the sacrafices that those in the US armed forces make to
           try and make this world a little safer for all of us.
           \_ I am as grateful to them as I am to our policemen, firemen,
              doctors, teachers, scientists and engineers.  I do think that
              our armed forces personnel are underpaid though.  They deserve
              to be paid well.

12/12   Sperm donor must pay child support:
        http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011209/od/life_sweden_sperm_dc_2.html
        \_ Under appeal.  All this proves is lower courts everywhere are
           moronic full of judges, US not the just in.

12/12   Jewish terrorist arrested in LA. Let's see how much press this gets:
        http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011212/ts/crime_jdl_dc_1.html
        \_ Cool!  This is one right step to show, or at least to pretend, that
           we are not biased in that issue.  I hope the press in the Islamic
           world will cover this.  -- Asian
        <troll>
        \_ Just another example of Anti-Israeli propoganda.
           \_ Just another example of Anti-Palestinian propoganda.
              \_ both just more examples of hate propoganda. Everyone
                 should meditate, breathe with their diaphragms and love.
        </troll>