Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:December:10 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2001/12/10 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:23197 Activity:very high
12/9    Enron's history
        http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_7142.html
        \_ i can hardly read that article, it's impossible
           to have truly unbiased journalism, but that article's
           smirking tone is too excessive to take seriously,
           there's probably a couple of facts in there, maybe
           you could summarize?  the pittsburgh tribune is also
           owned by the billionaire who has dedicated his fortune
           to destroying bill clinton.  great, that article is
           anonymous!
                \_ Do some research on Ron Brown.  That'll help.  Don't
                   get me wrong, I think all politicians are crooks,
                   including many 'conservatives'.
        \_ Enron gave $2M to the Republicans in 2000 and 1/4 that to Dems.
           http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/contrib.asp?Ind=E01&Cycle=2000
           Nice theory, but the facts condradict it.
                \_ Oh that's right, Enron's 1990's business deals in China,
                   Africa, and the Balkans (eg. Croatia) were mediated
                   by who else, the all powerful then Governor of Texas.
                   Why go through the Commerce / State department when
                   you have the state government of Texas at your disposal.
                   Enron is metaphor for the (Clinton) 90's.
                   BTW you are right in one respect, the real scandal of
                   Clinton's administration, campaign contributions
                   from foreign sources, was not investigated because
                   both the Dems and Repubs had their hands open.
                   \_ Except Enron is based in Texas, and was a big energy
                      company, and in the pocket of the Republican party.
                      Yeah, except for that, it was exactly like the Clinton
                      90's!
        \_ None of this Rep vs Dem political shit has anything to do with
           anything.  This is just another poorly run 90's company that was
           prepared for good times but not bad times.  There's no story here.
           It's the same as any dotcom that went under just bigger.  Trying
           to say it has something to do with Clinton/Bush is just stupid.
           \_ Perty much. The questions that linger should focus on how
              noone seemed to care that the company was a house of cards
              and if anyone is criminally negligent for it.
2001/12/10 [Uncategorized] UID:23198 Activity:nil
12/9    Too bad the Afghans did not finish the job.
        http://freerepublic.com/focus/fr/587054/posts
2001/12/10 [Politics/Domestic] UID:23199 Activity:nil
12/9    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011209/od/life_sweden_sperm_dc_2.html
        go liberals go
        \_ This sounds more like a conservative Law and Family ruling to me.
2001/12/10 [Uncategorized] UID:23200 Activity:high
12/9    Great, ebola is back.
        \_ It was never away!
2001/12/10-11 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:23201 Activity:high
12/9    I'm a gamer. Should I upgrade my CPU/motherboard to AMD or Pentium
        (same clock rate)? I already have a kick ass video card. ok thx
        \_ Price/perfomance ratio-wise, Athlon. AMD 1.4Ghz = Intel 2.0Ghz
           in terms of performance. http://www.anandtech.com for more info.
        \_ http://tomshardware.com did a cpu/gpu speed comparison a few months ago
           which showed that an AMD Athlon 800 was just as good as the 1400
           when you had a top end video card.  No more FPS from the higher
           speed cpu since the video card was the bottle neck.  I'd check this
           out before spending anything.  I have a much older system so if I
           was to buy today I'd get an Athlon 1600 or so but if I already had
           anything 800 or higher I wouldn't bother.
           \_ The problem is, most places don't carry anything that "slow"
              anymore. Yeah, they're still out there, but with 1.4Ghz now
              under $150, why bother going for anything less?
                \_ All I'm getting at is that if the poster is already running
                   800+ then they may not see *any* performance increase.  I'm
                   running p3-450 so I would but they *may* not.  Without
                   knowing what they're upgrading from it's hard to say if
                   an upgrade is a waste of money or not.  But, yes, sure, for
                   a new system from a much older system like mine, yeah I'd
                   go 1600+ just because the price difference is so minimal
                   anyway.
                   \_ It's sad that you had to basically repeat your original
                      post slightly reworded because the dumbass above didn't
                      understand what you were saying in the first place.
                      He must have been a stubborn [Arab|Jew|Democrat|Republ].
2001/12/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:23202 Activity:kinda low
12/9    Anybody know where I can buy glass jars that can hold 2-3 gallons?
        I'm making orange and lemon vinegar.  I can only find canning jars
        that are 8-16 ounces.  That's not big enough.  The glass jar has to
        be resealable.  Thanks.
         \_ I used to be able to buy 2 gallon screwcap bottles (like the
            guy in the commercial used for making "Lipton Sun Tea") at Cash &
            Carry. There's one on San Pablo in Richmond. There's also carbuoys,
            which are five gallons, which you can re-seal with a cork. A brewing
            supply store like the Oak Barrel can help you out there.  --ulysses
        \_ Urban Outfitters sells the canning jars that aren't big enough.
           Mentioned it because I thought it might be of use to someone else.
2001/12/10-11 [Health, Recreation/Food/Alcohol] UID:23203 Activity:kinda low
12/9    There's a malt drink in Germany called "Karamalz" or something like
        that.  It's not alcoholic and I heard it's very healthy.  Well
        healthier than drinking coke/pepsi at least.  Anybody know the
        exact name?  I'm trying to see if I can get it here in the states.
        \_ Kaiserdom Club-Malz?  http://www.germandeli.com/4004591065048.html
        \_ Is that the fermented horse's pubic hairs I've been hearing about?
2001/12/10 [Uncategorized] UID:23204 Activity:nil
12/9    I am a male model, not a male prostitute!
2001/12/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:23205 Activity:very high
12/9    How come the media likes to talk about 1-2 dead Israelis but rarely
        talks about thousands of Palistinians killed by Israelis gunship?
        Are Palistianian lives less worthy than Israelis?       -conscious jew
        \_ Who has more influence in the US media? Jews or Palistinians?
        \_ Who has more influence in the US media? Jews or Palestinians?
                \_ Ultra Leftists.
                \_ That woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
                   \_ Ah ha!  Exactly!  Jew Temptress ruins career of
                      pro-Palestinian President with aid from Jew controlled
                      anti-Palestinian right wing media!
        \_ Yes.
        \_ When the oppressed side has suicide bombers who say things like
           death to all the jews and explode themselves in public places,
           the press tends to take the oppressors side.  If the Palestinian
           people started to use non-violent means of protest, we might
           see something different.
           On a different note, I think the Israel-Palestine situation is
           all about provoking the other side into doing something that
           plays especially badly in the press, and claiming victimhood
           while you're fucking the other side back.
           \_ The Palestinians were at one point much less violent, at
              least for a people who had their homeland stolen.  But they
              got no attention (positive or negative) until they carried
              out some gruesome acts of terrorism.  Israel's PR system is
              enough to give any Redmond spin doctor a woody.  Once they
              had the ear of the international community, the Palestinians
              tried peace, but Israel continuously baited them.
              \_ The Palestinians tried peace?  Are you intentionally ignorant?
                 1999.  Arafat walked away from 99% of everything he had been
                 asking for.  They gave him everything.  He refused to talk
                 further and then called for more intifada.
                 \_ How much of the Right of Return was offered?
                    0% you mean, not 99%. This is a right guaranteed
                    by the UN and all signatories to the Geneva Convention.
                    \_ Israel offered 20k.  Arafat wanted 400k.  There was no
                       further discussion since Arafat fled the talks without
                       counter offering.  Sorry for providing facts that don't
                       match your opinions.
                       \_ 20k != 90% 400k.
                          IF he offered 99%, he might as well have gone 100%...
                          \_ There were many other things offered and on the
                             table than any right of return.  You're not being
                             honest if you look at one thing which Arafat
                             didn't even *try* to talk about and say it's all
                             Israel's fault when he got just about everything
                             he was asking for on every other topic.  If you're
                             going to be intentionally intellectually dishonest
                             then we can stop right now, you can get the last
                             post and walk away thinking you're really smart.
                             \_ I'm not blaming Israel. I'm just saying that
                                99% is utter bullshit, but the 20k/400k analogy
                                is much more accurate.
                          \_ And another thing: The West Bank belonged to
                             Jordan.  It's Jordanian land if not Israel's.  If
                             you think it should be "returned" to anyone, it
                             should be "returned" to Jordan, a Palestinian
                             country, not Arafat, a Palestinian terrorist.
              \_ All this tells me is that the Palestinians must TRAIN HARDER.
                 It is not an understatement to say that with each day that
                 Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al. continue to exist as they are,
                 the Palestinian people will suffer just much more for it.
              \_ You know I'm not big on Isreal BUT you have a pretty
                 revisionist version of history there.
        \_ read this article without getting mad:
           http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_diary/?pg=1 - danh
           \_ The Palestinians better stop the suicide bombing, yes?
           \_ It makes me mad that people with such obvious prejudice and
              bias can be published in major papers (although the NYT is known
              to be heavily biased) and get taken seriously by anyone as a
              reporter.  Once again all the Arabs have names and faces and are
              real people and the Israelis are the Evil Faceless Hordes.
              This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about earlier
              concerning media bias against Israel and in favor of terrorist
              suicide bombers.  Yes, it makes me mad.
        \_ i guess this proves soda is very diverse.  I read an awful lot
           of print media, and i would say in the articles I read
           (I don't confine myself to reading left wing hippie rags either)
           the palestinians are faceless, and the israelis are portrayed
           in a more favorable light.  yes no one is blameless, but i think
           the article is pretty good at depicting the palestinians as living
           in completely miserable economic conditions.  feel free to
           refute! - danh
        \_ How come we always hear from the families of the suicide bombers
           but never from the families of the real victims?  Are Jewish victims
           worth less than Muslim terrorists?
           \_ I don't hear anything about families of suicide bombers.
              Much more common is Palestinian police/kids getting whacked.
                \_ You don't?  I read several papers every day.  Most of the
                   suicide bombings have names and interviews with the bomber's
                   family but the victims are just body count.  What exactly
                   are you reading that you're unaware of this?
                   \_ nytimeslatimescnnwashingtonpostjpostmsnbc
                      okay, I should qualify what I said before to
                      "I hear 2x-3x more about the kids/policeman getting
                       whacked than the suicide bombers families."
                        \_ Then you're reading but not comprehending.  All of
                           these sources do exactly as I said.  In the future
                           (god, there's a sick thought) after a suicide
                           bombing in Israel see how many victim names you
                           get vs. the bomber and his family and see who gets
                   most extreme version of distorsion and pure hatred.
                           interviewed, if anyone.  Keep track.
                           \_ They talk about the Jewish families in http://jpost.com
                              naturally.  As for the U.S. outlets, they
                              don't usually, I admit, and say stuff like
                              "young people out for a good time got blown up."
                \_ There is a tendency to accuse anyone with the slightest
                   concern for Isreali action of bias and prejudice, while
                   editors like William Safire of the NYT get away with the
                   most extreme version of distortion and pure hatred.
                   That the gaza diary is posed on http://harpers.org online rather
                   than in NYT on paper is a good example.  Recently for
                   various reasons there is a bit more coverage for the
                   Palestinian plight but I suspect it will be shortlived.
                   I have been reading the NYT for many years and they almost
                   always report suide bombing of Isreal as a profound
                   tragedy, while only occasionally make passing mention of
                   the brutal oppression the people under the occupation has
                   to endure.  Whenever they do, my Isreali friend will cry
                   "bias bias," and some other will cry "anti-semitic."  Deep
                   in their heart they know there is something seriously
                   wrong, something contradictory to all the good liberal
                   and often socialist education fed to them by the Ashkenazi
                   labor government.  But when their conscience conflicts and
                   challenges their country's very legitemacy of existence
                   and the morality of their daily life, they enter into
                   vehement and violent denial, just like almost anyone else
                   would.  The Gaza diary link was posted before but removed
                   And yes, the Palestinians are brutal and stupid with all the
                   suicide bomging.  If someone even tries to run Americans
                   out of their American dream homes, we will be sure to drop
                   tons of cluster, oxygen depleting, bunker busting bombs
                   on them.  The Isreali and the Palestinians are far more
                   alike, both genetically and mentally, then they both like
                   to admit.  Many researches show that most Palestinians are
                   not Arabs but Jews who adopted Islam.  I believe if their
                   positions are switched they will behave exactly the same.
                   \_ The day I see Hamas/Islamic Jihad/PFLP renounce
                        Israeli armies in the earlier wars and laugh at that.
                        Israelis believe in strength, as exemplified by Sharon.
                        The Palestinians just cannot impress them with the
                        inefficient and ineffective method of suicide bombing
                        and a kill ratio that tilts heavily against themselves.
                      terrorist acts or rendered ineffective by Israeli,
                      international, or Palestinian deeds, is the day
                      I start feeling sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
                      Until then, Israel in my book can assassinate leaders
                      of these organizations and continue acting oppressive.
                      - I don't necessarily believe what I just wrote, but I
                        sure bet a lot of Israelis do.
                      \_  How much will that sympathy help them?  Isrealis
                        think the Palestinains fled in the face of advancing
                        Israeli army in the earlier wars without a good fight
                        and they laugh at that.  Israelis believe in strength,
                        as exemplified by Sharon. The Palestinians just cannot
                        impress them with the inefficient and ineffective
                        method of suicide bombing and a kill ratio that tilts
                        heavily against themselves.
                        \_ My friend, sympathy is the key.  The world turning
                           a blind eye to the Palestinian cause is because
                           of the wasting away of a sympathy.
                           \_ I am far more pessimistic.  I think the
                              Palestinian cause is a lost one.  Even if the
                              world does not turn a blind eye, so what?
                              The strong one wins.
                              \_ What about South Africa?  What about
                                 Ireland?
                                \_ In South Africa the white is such an
                                   isolated minority that unless their black
                                   killing virus had worked, they would always
                                   be demographically weak.  And no U.S.
                                   government will saction Isreal.  As for
                                   Ireland, I don't see it as a total victory
                                   for IRA, whose cause is not worth much
                                   sympathy regardless of the violence or not.
                                   But they have proven such a headache for
                                   GB that the latter had to make some
                                   concession.  This is an exemple in which
                                   terrorism actually worked, to some extent
                                   at least.  By the way, the biggest backers
                                   of the IRA is the Irish catholic community
                                   in the U.S.
        \_ You know, there has to be something wrong when the military wing
           of Fatah is named "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade"
        \_ Easy enough to understand: when a Jewish settler kills a
           Palestinian it is "self-defence," when a Palestinian does the
           same it is "terror." When the Mossad assasinates a Palestinian
           leader it is "justice," when Hamas assasinates an Isreali leader
           it is "terror." When Ireali rockets blow up Palestinian homes
           and civlians: "justice." Palestinian suicide bombers: "terror."
           Any further questions?
           \_ Yes.  Where'd you get this shit?  When a settler kills a
              palestinian, they pick up his ass for murder charges.  When the
              Israeli army kills a known palestinian bombing planner, it is
              self-defense.  When Hamas murders an Israeli leader (who had
              resigned, btw), it is murder.  When Israeli rockets blow up the
              buildings from which mortars are fired into Israeli civilian
              areas it is self-defense.  Palestinian suicide bomers blowing
              up kids at the disco (no crime having bad taste in music) is
              murder.  Any questions?
           \_ Easy enough to understand:  Palestinian fanatics make an
              effort to kill as many Israeli civilians as possibe; Mossad
              tries to kill Palestinian fanatics.  As for Jewish settlers
              and Palestinian residents shooting at each other, many
              wouldn't be so anti-Palestinian today if there weren't any
              suicide bombers.  Anyways, like I said, Israel provokes the
              fanatics with settlements, erecting a police state, and acting
              like oppressors in general -- its the radicals' fault if they
              continue to blow themselves up in shopping areas in response.
              \_ Israel cleaned *all* of the settlers out of the Sinai to
                 get a guaranteed peace with Egypt so we know Israel is
                 willing to do such a thing.  The problem here is that Arafat
                 nor any other Palestinian leader can or will grant Israel
                 any sort of peace, guaranteed or otherwise.  Get some real
                 leadership on the palestinian side that can guarantee a peace
                 and there'll be something to talk about.
                \_ Although they lost the war, Egypt was too big for Israel
                   to destroy as a whole, so Israel was willing to clean the
                   settlers out for a peace treaty.  My Isreali colleagues,
                   self-described "leftists", all claim they do not really
                   care about the settlement but want to use it as a
                   bargaining chip.  So it seems fair that the Palestinians
                   have nothing but suicice bombing as *their* bargaining chip.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:December:10 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>