Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:September:17 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2001/9/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22491 Activity:high
9/17    "Afghanistan: A Nightmare Battlefield"
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41121-2001Sep16.html
        It seems it'll be hard to win a full-scale war.
        \_ We don't need to take and hold territory.  Just kill the right
           people.  This is very different from the warm water port the Soviets
           were looking for.
           \_ It depends on whether the goal is to get nedalnibamaso or to
              eliminate the talibananas.
        \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em off
        \_ this was the same rhetoric for iraq, took only 4 days to finish em
           off
        \_ just use nukes to make big holes in the earth where the caves are
           \_ three words:  radioactive dust clouds
           \_ Are you stupid?  afghans are some of the most friendly people on
              earth.  Also they produce some of the most beautiful babes on
              earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took his
              wife roxelena from there.  darius the great, the sword of the
              earth, that's why our ancestor alexander the mighty great took
              his wife roxelena from there.  darius the great, the sword of the
              Lord, who was very nice to the Isrealites as mentioned in the
              bible, also hail from somewhere there.  It's the mad foreign
              mullahs from saudi alabia who enslaved them that we should
              eliminate.
           \_ Hey, let's try to limit civilian deaths, and not just wantonly
              kill people like the terrorists just did.
2001/9/17-18 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:22492 Activity:nil
9/17    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010917/tc/rambus_intel_sign_new_chip_deal_1.html
        "The companies renegotiate their patent cross-licensing deal and
        announce a new 5-year agreement."
        Didn't Intel announce that they were going to break all ties with
        Rambus a while ago?
        \_ something on http://tomshardware.com about intel wanting some other
           memory controller stuff rambus has.  I didn't read the full article.
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22493 Activity:high
9/17    Question: To those of you opposed to various military actions, what
        do you propose the US do?  I understand the objection(s) to military
        response.  I'm not debating that.  What action(s) do you propose we
        take instead?  I'm looking for serious responses.  Please, I'm not
        looking for answers in the negative as to what we shouldn't do.  I
        honestly want to know what you think we should be doing, if anything.
        Concrete stuff, not simply "follow international law" and other
        fuzzy stuff like that.  Thanks.
        \_ my position on the subject is that "war" is completely the wrong
           concept to invoke because it's an extremely loaded word with
           lots of consequences. i think what you want is to ARREST the
           group of international bandits using whatever means necessary.
           war is an overraction. this was not an act of war. this was
           a criminal murder. you need two nations for war, with citizens
           and soldiers. what you have is a bunch of renegades. Go arrest
           them and all this anger will be dealt with properly. -ali
           \_ But most of these renegades have support from one of a variety
              of middle eastern nations.  arresting a specific group may
              eliminiate one cell, but it does not solve the problem -- as
              long as the support is there, the terrorists will continue to
              exist.  If someone is harboring a criminal, they implicitly
              become accomplices; if a national entity is harboring these
              criminals....what do you suggest?  Asking nicely hasn't turned
              up any real results thus far, and violating another nation's
              sovereignity is an act of war...        -mice
              sovereignity (crossing their borders w/o permission to make an
              arrest) is an act of war...        -mice
              \_ Most of them come from saudialabia and uae, whose
                 dictatorship governments are very friendly to us.  Doesn't
                 that tell u something?
                 \_ Yes, that you're not very well informed.
        \_ nuke pakistan
           \_ Pakistan appears to be cooperating.  Why do you want to nuke a
              potential ally in the area which likely has intelligence
              information on bin Laden?
        \_ let's do the aghgan people a favor and take out the taliban.
           they are oppressive even to their own kind. no nukes just invade
           and set up a new government and hand it over to saudi arabia or
           or india.
            \_ I agree.  Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for
               the afghan people, but it may be costly for us.  Still
               it's a good cause.  However do not hand it over to
               banana republics like saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to
               banana republics like saudialabia or indo, but hand it to
               UK or Japan.
               \_ yah. hand it over to the gaps of the world, or the old navies
           \_ I agree.  Taking out the talibananas would be a favor for the
              afghan people, but it may be costly for us.  Still it's a good
              cause.  However do not hand it over to banana republics like
              saudialabia or hindostan, but hand it to UK or Japan.
           \_ oh yeah, cool... let's overthrow another gov't like we tried
              to do in Nicaragua, etc.
           \_ If the Taliban is harboring terrorists, then that's precisely what
              we will do.
        \_ I think we need to bomb a few random deserted place in Afghanistan
           without killing civilians just to show that we are committed to
           military retaliation.  This won't actually do anything to get us bin
           mility retaliation.  This won't actually do anything to get us bin
           Laden, but it'll settle national anger and keep our face.  After
           that, pump all the resources into CIA and do the real work of
           getting bin Laden and destroying the terrorist network.  We need to
           revise the ban on CIA assasination as well.  (I'm not debating
           whether or not CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing.  It
           just happens to be the agency we have at this moment.)
           just happens to be the agency we have on hand at this moment.)
           \_ Moron.  Many terrorist camps are near civilian settlements.  Why
              kill off people who are innocent bystanders and could tell is
              where the bad guys are?
        \_ Change US policy over time to not support Israel? Not something
           I believe, but maybe others do.
           \_ Doesn't this just "reward" the terrorists for their actions by
              giving them what they want?  How would this discourage further
              violence against us to further shift our policy until our policy
              becomes whatever they want because we fear them?
              \_ Yeah, I think so... I agree with the previous poster's
                 statement though... I think we need to get Osama et. al.
                 through diplomacy, intelligence, etc and additionally
                 evaluate our actions that were creating this climate of
                 terrorism (eg stop giving money to Israel).
              \_ You can't think that way. That's the attitude of a brat who
                 refuses to stop doing something because his pride won't let
                 him admit he was wrong. IF something is wrong for us we should
                 stop. Such as our own support of terrorism in the past, and
                 Israel's support of of terrorism in the past...read up on what
                 they were doing to get the British out.
                 \_ Get the British out of where?
                    \_ Israel. Duh. King David hotel, Semiramis hotel (bombing
                       leading to collapse of building). Other stuff like:
                       http://www.jerusalemites.org/sabra.html
                       It's hard to find objective sources on any of it though.
                 \_ Sure I can think that way.  Here's another way to think
                    of it: the nagging brat who screams until his mother gives
                    in to his demand for the new power ranger toy.  Then he
                    wants the other ones.  So he screams.  Then he wants a
                    bigger cookie, then another cookie, then no curfew or
                    bedtime, then he wants....  When does it stop?  If mom
                    had punished his poor behavior (the screaming) at stage
                    one, then the lack of reward would, in time, cease his
                    screaming fits.  How's that for an alternative line of
                    thought on the psychology of children and terrorists?
                    \_ I said "IF SOMETHING IS WRONG FOR US." Dimwit. Demanding
                       cookies isn't a valid analogy for any case of terrorism
                       I can think of.
           \_ What do we get out of supporting Israel?
           \_ We need to get little boy Yasser and little boy Sharon
              together and keep spanking their arses until they agree to
              stop their bitch fight.  Aren't the Arabs and Jews fucking
              relatives?  Don't understand why we should be suffering for
              their darn family feud.  Fucking create problems for the
              whole world.
           just to show that we are committed to mility retaliation.  This
           won't actually do anything to get us bin Laden, but it'll settle
           national anger and keep our "face".  After that, pump all the
           resources into CIA and do the real work of getting bin Laden and
           destroying the terrorist network.  We need to revise the ban on
           CIA assasination as well.  (I'm not debating whether or not
           CIA is all screw-up and is worth re-vitalizing.  It just happens to
           be the agency we have on hand at this moment.)
           \_ it's a war, if we don't do anything to take out a government that
           hides behind a terrorist group then we are inviting nations to create
           terrorist groups (but really working for their government's interests)
           where their government can easily detach themselves but in actuality
           they support them. We have to show this is B.S. and any nation that
           harbors terrorist is using this terrorist group as their own weapon
              their darn family feud.
              their darn family feud.  Fucking create problems for the whole
              world.
2001/9/17-18 [Uncategorized/Multicategory] UID:22494 Activity:nil
9/17    Besides the standard text books what are some good books to read
        to prep for Computer Science GRE? Thanks.
        \_ "Practical Internet Security", P. Nunez
        \_ no, seriously, you want to read some 150.  Altho strong reports
           were to the contrary, i was a bit annoyed to find multipart
           150 things in the GRE i took last fall - paolo
           \_ and a fall it was! you also want to look at sipser's book,
              which i think is the 174 book.
              \_ 172, not 174. but yea, sipser is damn good. -alexf
2001/9/17-18 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22496 Activity:very high
9/17    Can anyone give a brief (<1 page) description (biased or not) or url
        of why Russia wanted control over Afghanistan for so long?
        \_ They wanted to then take Pakistan, warm water port in the Indian
           Ocean.
           \_ With the US sphere of influence decreased because of the Iranian
              revolution they jumped at the chance of increasing their sphere
              of influence in the Region.
        \_ Because 1) Brezhnev was an idiot. 2) Not Russia particularly but USSR
           was willing to offer economic and military help to all anti-US,
           populist, socialist, or communist governments around the world
           (e.g. Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc). With Afganistan Brezhnev went
           too far and ordered military invasion. Russians quickly found their
           Vietnam in Afganistan and were forced to pull out of this country in
           the late 80s mostly because of protests at home.
           \- largest deposit of Scandium inthe world. --psb
           \_ "protest at home" in a communist country?  And the govt actually
              let them live?  And listened to them?
              \_ Little old ladies carrying pictures of their sons as I recall.
           \_ Well, that was in the late 1980s during the glastnost and
              perestroika at which point freedom of speech was being encouraged
              by Gorbachev's government.
        \_ By the way, does anyone remember the title of the movie about a
           Russian tank crew that got lost in Afganistan?
           \_ Probably "The Beast" (1998) with Jason Patric of The Lost Boys fame
              --ulysses
           \_ Rambo III ?
2001/9/17-18 [Uncategorized] UID:22497 Activity:nil
 9/17  M$ Q:anyone know how to span multiple files in one microsoft word?
       e.g. I have something over 100 pages, that's too big, so I want to
       break it up into 10 different chapters, each in different files, but
       somehow all linked together?
2001/9/17-18 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:22498 Activity:moderate
9/17    Is everything an instanceof Class?
        \_ No. All Java objects are instance of java.lang.Object. Only
        \_ No. All Java objects are instanceof java.lang.Object. Only
           class objects, such as java.util.Vector.class are instanceof
           java.lang.Class.
        \_ tricks with java!  look at the dwallach paper on things like
           namespace collision with objects and inheriting the class loader
           in byte code.
2001/9/17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:36309 Activity:nil
9/17    Politburo, is that you? Hail motd censor king.
2001/9/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:36310 Activity:nil
9/17    "Pakistan's decision to give "full support" to the United States drew
        widespread protest Sunday from hard-line Islamists. Demonstrators
        burned U.S. flags, shouted their support of bin Laden, and warned the
        government they would take up arms for the Taliban."
        What's an "Islamist"? Is that like a Christianist?
        \_ I think it's more of a Christianityist.
        \_ So our request of cooperation with Pakistan is basically fueling
           the beginnings of a civil war there, and another round of Osama's
           in 5-10 years. Maybe by the time they get around to bombing us,
           we can get Afghanistan to help us.
           \_ Huh? Everyone knows the problem is evil-doers. Eeevil dooers.
              We'll keep stamping out evil wherever it springs, like black, evil
              ants swarming out from the dark, evil places in the earth.
           \_ Yes, it's a tricky situation, and Pakistan has nuclear weapons
              too, albeit puny ones.  I thought we should go in from the
              northside instead.  Southside has always been too much of
              a mess for my taste.
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36311 Activity:nil 53%like:23257 52%like:36312
9/17    MOTD POLL:  Osama bin Laden will be released to the U.S. ...

        In less than a month: .
        When Allied forces have arrived:
        Never / he'll be killed first:  ...
              \_ Obviously this is the division operator!
        \_ These are two different things.  Never != killed.  I wonder how
           long he can go without getting caught.  It's been years already
           although there hasn't been a huge effort to nab him.  Also, I read
           he has has some sort of liver/kidney(?) problems so he might just
           keel over on his own anyway.
           \_ he's a hypochondriac and not actualy sick.  he has a doctor in
              his possee too (according to the cia blurb on msnbc)
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36312 Activity:nil 52%like:36311
9/17    Osama bin Laden will be released to the U.S. ...

        In less than a month: .
        When Allied forces have arrived:
        Never / he'll be killed first:
2001/9/17 [Finance/Investment] UID:36313 Activity:nil
9/17    What are some good stocks to buy during war time?
        \_ Defense, oil.
        \_ Defense, oil.  Maybe gold.
        \_ in REAL war time, energy will be regulated by government.
           Your best bet is the government T-bill.  (I assume you mean
           investment in the US).  For now, stock is not the place to
           be in.  Best shelter is the federal bonds or CDs.  You
           can always come back to the market.
        \_ Maybe Amtrack and Greyhound if you're talking about this particular
           war (although an Amtrack train collided a few days ago).
           war.  (Although an Amtrack train collided a few days ago.)
        \_ High tech: communications (optical, wireless).  Video Teleconferencing
           stocks are already going up.
           stocks are already going up.  Also UPS, FedEx, ...
        \_ Medical stocks.
        \_ You got it backwards. Think of stocks to short instead.
2001/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:36314 Activity:nil 77%like:36315
9/17    Has anyone noticed that the bartenders working the upstairs
        bar at 550 Barneveld are the rudest in the city?
2001/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:36315 Activity:nil 77%like:36314
9/17    Has anyone noticed that the bartenders working the upstairs
        bar at 555 Barnevald are the rudest in the city?
2001/9/17 [Reference/Military] UID:36316 Activity:nil
9/17    Silicon Valley Way to stop hijacking:
        http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2812283,00.html
        \_ I had an idea similar to that. My idea was to allow a nearby
           fighter or ground controller to remotely assume control of the
           plane. This is possible  because modern planes pass  all of
           the pilot's inputs into a fly-by-wire computer anyways so
           there's no direct link from the pilot the the flight control
           surfaces. The only problem is that pilots might feel uncomfortable
           allowing a plane to be remote controlled. That can be solved
           by embedding the planes avionics with a unique key which can
           be kept safely by the airline or FAA. But if a plane can land
           itself on its own that's all the better.
           \_ So the jet fighter pilot needs to be trained on how to fly two
              planes of different types simultaneously?  Cool!
        \_ This sounds like a good scheme to me. Maybe now we can have our
           e-tickets and automated check-in back.
        \_ "UNDER STEVE'S PLAN, the terrorist can't get what he wants. His only
           option then is to kill all the people on the plane, and if his only
           objective is loss of life, a plane is a mighty tough target when
           there are easier ones (like buses) available."
           there are easier ones (like buses) available."  He neglected the
           fact that it's much easier to storm a hijacked bus with SWAT team
           than a hijacked plane, so there's still incentive to hijack a plane.
           --- yuen
        \_ the solution is build more mass transit. higher capacity, more
           throughput, quick check-in time, ease of access and higher safety
        \_ He neglected the fact that it's much easier to storm a hijacked bus
           with SWAT team than a hijacked plane, so there's still incentive to
           hijack a plane.  His plan also doesn't prevent a hijacker that
           demends "I'll blow up the plane if you don't release this and this
           terrorists ... er ... worriers from such and such prisons." --- yuen
2001/9/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36317 Activity:nil
9/17    The die is cast:
        http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba5e05c34a5.htm
        \_ The Free Republic is used for porn steganography by Bin Laden's
           Gum Arabic producing cronies.  And you're an arab terrorist
           commie bastard for reading it.
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36318 Activity:nil
9/17    I've been reading news stories from 1998 that say that bin Laden is
        suspected to have major ties to gum arabic companies in Sudan. (Gum
        arabic is an ingredient in many colas and candies.) Anybody know
        anything more about this?  Do we still have an embargo on Sudan?  If
        so, from where do we get our gum arabic?
        \_ Sudan, smuggling.  Quit eating candy, you arab terrorist
           commie bastard.  -John
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36319 Activity:nil
9/17    Many have probably already heard this, but I just found out. Any-
        one think it may be possible that they shot down that jet in Penn?
        http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7197677.html
        This article also has a great Bush quote:
        "My administration has a job to do...We will rid the world of evil
        doers."
        \_ I heard this before (probably on the motd), but it seems kind of
           unlikely given:
           1) there is evidence that the passengers on flight 93 knew about the
              previous attacks that day and had planned to retake control of
              the airplane.  given that there were ~5-6 hijackers, armed only
              with knives, I think it's unlikely the passengers failed.
           2) there isn't a strong motivation for covering it up.  it would
              have been good press for quick government response.
        \_
        \_ http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,311011-412,00.shtml
        \_ That reminds me of the movie "Executive Decision" where the
           President considered shooting down a hijacked plane.
           President considered shooting down a hijacked plane before it
           reaches US soil.
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36320 Activity:nil
9/17    http://www.workingforchange.com
        A more well-rounded perspective than most news sites.
        \_ Well rounded my ass.  'Here is an idea: tax the rich, and large
           corporations fairly.'  (As if there was such as thing as fair
           selective taxation).
           \_ Is one man's right to a Porsche more important than another man's
                right to eat?  Perhaps one thing we could learn from Islam
                is that we should donate 1/5 of our income towards helping
                the poor.  (Not like Gov't uses that much of our income to
                do so anyways.)
                \_ You are always welcomed to donate your income to
                \_ No one has a _right_ to {food|car|housing}.  You have a
                   right to pursue those things in peace, though.  Liberals
                   never did understand the concept of rights.
                   \_ Many disagree with you on this, including FDR.
                \_ You are always welcomed to donate your income towards
                   helping the poor.  You don't have to do it through the
                   government.  In fact, it is your obligation if you are
                   a Christian.
        \_ Quote from the article: "Already, there have been reports that CNN's
           video of celebrating Palestinians is the same tape played during the
           Gulf War."  Has anyone seen any other news source mentioning this?
                \_ the above was first reported on http://www.indymedia.org
                   but CNN has denied it and I think it has been retracted.
                   one of my more sports fanatical friends noticed the footage
                   had a guy in a tshirt of a football team that didn't
                   even exist during the Gulf War.  - danh
                   \_ Good.  That T-shirt is solid proof then.
                   \_ Good.  That T-shirt is solid proof then.  (Unless someone
                      goes as far as saying the whole footage was just
                      acting in a studio.)
                      \_ I'll bet that CNN took the old footage and DIGITALLY
                         PAINTED THAT SHIRT onto an INNOCENT MAN in order to
                         cement their position as the MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN,
                         PULLING THE LEVERS OF PUBLIC OPINION!!!1!!1!!!!
2001/9/17 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36321 Activity:nil
9/17    Someone posted a very informative link about bin laden including
        where he was last known to be, etc.  I thought i book-marked it
        but... Anyway.  Would anyone who has it please repost.  thanks.
        \_ maybe http://www.msnbc.com/news/627355.asp
2001/9/17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36322 Activity:nil
9/16    A Modest Proposal: One of the threads below shows how confusing it is
        to have several anonymous posts on the same thread, with some but not
        others by the same author. So, to make life easier, if you feel like
        posting anonymously but will probably post again on the same thread
        and want people to know your posts are by the same person, just pick
        an arbitrary 32-bit int "sig" and use it to sign your posts on that
        thread. Then feel free to change your "sig" whenever. -0x1337D00D
        \_ What's with the 5+ line posts? Is it a concerted effort to render
           the motd useless?
        \_ Who is number 0x1?
           \_ You are number 0x6.
              \_ I AM NOT A NUMBER!  I AM A FREE MAN!
        \_ Wow, yeah... but are you sure 32 bits are enough!?  --foo
           \- i wonder what would happen if some number of people pledged
           to "join" the Brotherhood [And Sisterhood] To Indiscriminantly And
           Rapidly Delete Anonymous Motd Posts Regardless Of Content ...
           it might crowd out anon posts, but i suppose it is also possible
           it will lead to RCS madness. ok tnx. --psb
           \_ [post deleted as part of the 'Brotherhood (And Sisterhood) To
               Indiscriminantly And Rapidly Delete psb Motd Posts Regardless
               Of Content'. ok tnx.] (not to mention bad formatting)
                                            - 0xanonymouse
           \_ Soda has less than 4G accounts so far.
              \_ We need to plan for the future, though!  What if some of
                 these posts are still around when it has more than that?
                 Huh?  Did you think of that?  --0xDEAD1337CAFED00D
                 \_ No. We need to plan far ahead like IPv6. Just in case
                    there are 4000 CSUA posters per square foot of land
                    on earth. We need 128-bit signatures.
                    -0x49193631abedf0001242efacc012
        \_ You just need a unique id per thread. we don't need to track across
           threads. So the poster posts with id 0. the first to respond uses
           id 1, and so forth. if you post twice on a current thread, use the
           same id. the motd lock acts as a mutex so you don't need to worry
           about thread safety.
           about thread safety. -0x1
2001/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:36323 Activity:nil
9/16    The devil did it! ...scroll down to see "pictures of his face"
        in the smoke:
        <DEAD>www.artbell.com/letters21.html<DEAD>
        \_ you sure that's not Elvis?  -tom
        \_ who cares. http://www.snopes2.com/spoons/photos/wtcface.htm
2001/9/17 [Uncategorized] UID:36324 Activity:nil
9/16    Anyone know how to turn of non-printing text in M$ Word 97-98?
        I'm editing this doc that has a bunch of publishing directives
        in and I'd like to view just the text, not the directives. No
        I cannot use StarOffice or ApplixWare or whatever, it  has to
        be Word. tia.
        \_ Tools...Preferences...Nonprinting characters.  -tom
2001/9/17 [Reference/Religion] UID:36325 Activity:nil
9/16    No, it is not "punishment from God".  However, it is important
        for Christians to examine why the attack happened.  Yes, we
        should destroy the terrorist networks.  However, this is not
        a long term solution because these networks will spring up again
        if the underlying resentment and hatred are not reconciled.
        We have to ask ourselves if our middle-eastern policies are in
        accordance to the teachings of our Lord.  Have we been pursuing
        material well-being, in the form of a cheap oil supply, at the
        expense of the well-being of others?  Have we been sacrificing
        justice and doing what's right for the sake of our self-interests?
        Have we placed our trust in our military might instead of in the
        Lord?  Have we been mis-using our military might?  In our safety
        and abundance, have we become indifferent to the sufferings of
        others?  Have we been worshipping Mammon, the god of money, and
        Bel, the god of war, instead of our Lord?
        \_ What if there is no God? What if all the lives spent in
           persuit of holier-than-thou-because-my-God-is-better
           could have instead lived their own lives? Nothing
           Absolutly nothing has cost more lives in the
           history of humankind than organized religion.
                                     \- i dont think islam today is
                                     particularly well organized. what
                                     do you mean by "organized relig" --psb
                                     \- this is a cliche somewhere between
                                     "the love of money is the root of all
                                     evil" and "capitalism causes imperialism".
                                     btw, people should start saying "evil"
                                     like alec guiness rather than the american
                                     "eevul" ... "ee-ville". --psb
           \_ Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Caligula?
              What were their faith?
                \_ Hitler was insane. Good point on Stalin and Mao:
                   Marxism is rising in the ultimate body count.
              \_ yeah and the inquisition was what? a census count?
                 \_ Don't forget the crusades. Just your friendly
                    Christian tourists on holiday from europe.
                    \_ My point is, do not unthinkingly put the blame on
                       "organized religion" when the cause is our selfish,
                       corrupted human nature.
                       "organized religion" when the cause may be our
                       own selfish, corrupted human nature.
                       \_ Maybe the cause is our corrupt and unthinkingly
                          internalized force-fed social and moral structure.
                          Perhaps we should re-examine the core tenets of
                          Judeo-Christian thought and the easy tendency for
                          too many adherents to blindly accept what is fed to
                          them on some absurd notion of "Faith".  Religion is
                          a crutch for the weak-minded.
                          \_ An easy and "smart" out for atheists.
                             Consider all the universal constants that are
                             somehow just right for the universe to exist,
                             talk to an astrophysicist, and ask him/her
                             how much tolerance there is in those numbers.
                             Whether you believe in the big bang or not,
                             there are evidence in the universe that
                             point towards that it was DESIGNED by someone.
                          \_ Why don't we start listing all the weak-minded
                             individuals who believe in the Lord, starting
                             with Abraham Lincoln, .....
                             individuals who have faith in the Lord.  Let's
                             start with Abraham Lincoln, ...
                             \_ As it happens actually, I'm not an atheist.
                                I'm catholic.  But I really depise when idiots
                                armed with empty platitudes attempt to
                                sanctimoniously proselytize people to their
                                rediculous blindly accepting POV.  If even
                                a quarter of the people out there actually
                                THOUGHT about the structure of the relgion
                                they ascribed to or the organization that
                                has indoctrinized them, our world would be
                                about 10 times better off than it is.  Sadly,
                                "Faith" has become a cheap, drive through
                                substitute for understanding and intellectual
                                exploration.  Why consider the ramifications
                                or relevancy of my moral structure when I can
                                just mainline "Faith" in the "Plan" of the
                                divine creator?  I can't belIEVE that I'm
                                wasting my time with this.  Be happy in your
                                self-imposed blindess man.  Personally, I'm
                                not going to be complacent and just accept
                                whatever the current fad is as the Word of God.
                             \_ bs.  I'd believe constants were "designed" if
                                pi were exactly 3, but otherwise it's
                                coincidence.
                          \_ Why don't we start listing all the weak-minded
                             individuals who have faith in the Lord.  Let's
                             start with Abraham Lincoln, ...
           \_ IMAGINE all the PEOPLEEEE . . . LIVING for TODAYYYYYYY . . .
        \_ Praise God! May *all* of us be counted worthy. -allenp
        \_ This is mild, coming from the God of the Old Testament.  If he
           really exists, this isn't enough pain and death to serve His
           needs.
2001/9/17 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:36326 Activity:nil
9/16    Nuclear missile / terrorist nuclear bomb will be used:
        Within a year: .
        < 2 years:
        < 4 years:
        < 10 years:
        >= 10 years: ..
2001/9/17 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW] UID:36327 Activity:nil
9/16    wow. MSFT is only contributing 5 mil to disaster relief... which
        is amazing considering how much money they have floating around.
        \_ From what I read they are donating $1e7, $5e6 cash $5e6 software.
           The red cross has specifically asked for Win* and Office.
                \_ I don't consider donating a bunch of licenses
                   for software to be particulary generous. - danh
                \_ you know I'm not a huge microsoft fan, but it seems
                   bitching aobut them ONLY donating 5-10 million is a
                   just lame.  -aspo
                   \_ Just stating what I read, don't rightly care one
                      way or the other.
                        \_ sure you do!  you posted it! - danh
                           \_ I posted the bit about $5e6 cash and
                              $5e6 software. I didn't post the wow
                              bit. Besides, the red cross specifically
                              asked for the software so that bit of
                              the donation seems right on the mark.
                              asked for the software so it seems
                              that ms is right on the mark.
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:September:17 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>