9/12    North Korea's stance on the US attacks.
        http://www.kcna.co.jp/contents/12.htm#3
        \_ check out this part though: http://www.kcna.co.jp/contents/12.htm#8
           wtf?
           \_ Say whatever.  They don't mention that they are the ones who
              digged underground tunnels thru the 38-deg line and sent assasins
              into South Korea, and they sent agents to plant a bomb on a
              Korean Airline civilian flight.  Now that's from a country who
              said they're against terrorism.
              said is against terrorism.

9/12    hi red cross NYC needs equipment.  anyone want to help out? - paolo
   http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/0,23008,3347294,00.html
        \_ wtf? "15 PC Anywhere licenses", "50 MS Office Professional licenses"
           they shouldn't even need to ask the general public for things like
           that.  I find it hard to believe that a software company would not
           donate any number of software licenses for this.  furthermore, if
           they really need this software that badly, I'm sure no one will care
           if they warez them.
           \_ I guess Bill and M$ needs the money more than say Chambers and
              Cisco or GE. Makes you wonder what they need the money for.
           \_ Why don't they use Free Software (TM) if they're poor?
              \_ Because an emergency is an emergency, and they don't have
                 time in the short term to retrain people. Now in the _long_
                 run, it's up to _us_, the people who understand how much
                 better the free software solution can be, to go out and
                 _patiently_ explain to organizations like the Red Cross that
                 they need to switch over and figure out how they can do so
                 with the minimal expenditure of time and resources. Keep
                 in mind that they have to run off very limited volunteer
                 hours, mostly provided by people not highly skilled in
                 computer-related things. -alexf

9/12    How convenient:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1541000/1541228.stm
        \_ About time. No more suicide bombers from that town, at least.
           \_ Oh?  do you think the presence of Israeli tanks, soldiers, and
              killing will make the people into pacificists?
              \_ Probably not, but it will remove their ability to train each
                 other so easily.
              \_ Perhaps if the tanks and soldiers are used to kill the people
                 who are suicide bombers then the problem will be solved.
                 \_ "All suicide bombers, please come out with your hands up!".

9/12    There are people looking for loved ones inside of New York City.
        C'mon computer geeks!  Can't we setup an online forum/system
        service to help match people with loved ones in New York City?
        \_ This has been left as an excersize for the poster. But seriously,
           without adequate bandwidth and pubilicity I'm not sure how
           useful the effort would be?
           \_ that's why you are computer geeks, right?  You are capable.
                Slashdot, newsgroups, people who want to donate
                ISP space...
        \_ There already is one. At Berkeley, too.
           \_ URL?
        \_ <DEAD>safe.millennium.berkeley.edu<DEAD>
           It has bw and server capacity.  it's on the news. --jon
           \_ It's all over the wires as well, as a matter of fact. -alexf
           \_ some people can be so insensitive.  They are adding names
                (on the other services) like Beavis and Butthead and
                Christina Aguilara.

9/12    This is probably the scariest thing I've read all day:
        http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001106
        \_ I heard the FAA is going to add another question at the checkin
           counters: "Why are you travelling."  Yeah, they're going to block
           the terrorists when they answer "Well, I'm planning to hijack this
           plane."  I feel safe now.
           plane."

9/12    Instead of arguing about all this terrorism crap, do something
        good and donate some blood.
        http://www.redcross.org/ca/norcal/donating/center.htm
        \_ Or money, if you happen to be sick for the time being like me.
           \_ http://www.amazon.com/red-cross

9/12    Interesting details about bin laden:
        http://www.thesmokinggun.com/binladen/binladen.shtml
        \_ Stupid phony ID.
           http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fall/murad9.html
           He forgot that the day goes before the month in British dates.
           -- yuen

9/12    A decent article from a non-US source:
        http://rediff.com/news/2001/sep/12anil.htm

9/12    Does our military do background checks on enlisted personnels and
        recruits?
        \_ Yes. Its also required for civil service or contract work on
           military bases.
        \_ Very cursory ones.
        \_ Timothy McVeigh was a Gulf war veteran.
        \_ Very cursiory ones.
           \_ what a moronic comment. your point? Did you even bother to
              read his history and how he got disenfranchised AFTER the
              Gulf War, especially because of Waco?

9/13    http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba02bf8631c.htm
        Read message 14
        \_ 14(re israel) or 13(re russia)?
           \_ the numbering of the comments is really confusing.  message 14
              is about russia, not israel. (message 1 is the article itself.)
           \_ what part of 14 don't you understand?
           \_ what part of 14 don't you understand?  I think the original
              poster was pointing out the second to last paragraph ("Two nights
              ago...")

9/12    Help, we're allied with Sharon and we can't get out!
        \_ A clinton/gore voter no doubt
           \_ A cheney/bush supporter of course
              \_ http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba03b327f42.htm
           \_ A cheney/bush voter of course
                 \_ conservative rag - what can you say?
                    \_ That the article is correct, but House
                       Repubs are also to blame.

9/13    I'm curious what the closest that anyone in the CSUA is to the
        tragedy... my friend's aunt was a stewardess on one of the flights.
        Anyone else care to divulge?
        \_ My sister-in-law's student's relative (Is this very far?) was in
           WTC and made a goodbye call to his wife because he was trapped
           up on one of the upper floors.
        \_ A co-worker's friend was on the SFO-bound flight.
        \_ Word going around of a girl at CKC who lost her entire family
           on one of the flights.
        \_ maroo (amazing in netrek) works at morgan stanley in wtc. he is alright
           and most of their company is accounted for
           jack hsu - (gaia in netrek) was across the canal and saw the wtc towers
           go down
           \_ submit these to <DEAD>safe.millennium.berkeley.edu<DEAD>
           \_ Did Jack really log 500 hours of netrek during 1 semester?
             \_ on how many different servers?  --oj
                \_ What does that mean?  I don't play netrek, just heard the
                \_ I don't know.  I don't play netrek.  Just heard the
                   above about Jack.
                   above about Jack.  Are you from Catholic High?
        \_ my best friend's college buddy was on the 85th floor when
           it happened.  He got out a couple minutes before first tower
           collapsed. He was in first tower.
           \_ What floors did the plane hit?
           \_ What floors did the plane hit?  I thought 85 would be above the
              hit.
           \_ What floors did the plane hit?  I thought 85 was above where
              it hit.
        \_ This is kind of macabre... I used to be a consultant to Lehman
           and worked in the WTC. I also have a friend who lives a few blocks
           away in Tribeca.

9/13    I've seen reuters reports on GE giving 10 million and CSCO giving 6
        million to aid new york.  Where the hell is Bill and MSFT?  Can't
        spare change?

1460    "In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
         Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
         while the fortress endures,
         the great leader will succumb,
         the third big war will begin when the big city is burning"
                -Nostradamous
        \_ I heard from KCBS that Sun Micro is donating too.
        \_ M$ is too busy updating its Flight Simulator to include four new
           destinations.
           \_ WTC, Pentagon, White House and AF1?
              \_ WT1, WT2, PTG, and PBV (Pittsburg Vicinity).  AF1 will require
              \_ WT1, WT2, PTG, and PBS (Pittsburg Suburb).  AF1 will require
                 a later version that can support a moving destination.  M$
                 does not officially support WHS because it has not been
                 recognized as a flight target in real life, yet.  But its
                 engineering and marketing teams are eagarly waiting for any
                 engineering and marketing team is eagarly waiting for any
                 changes in situations.
                 \_ 'Engineering Strikes on Civilan, Military and Political
                     Targets: A case study of the WTC, Pentagon and White
                     House Attacks' Laden et. al. 12 Sept 2001 Univeristy
                     of Kabul Press should be of great help to M$ engineering.
        \_ its been debunked already.  forgot the link.
              \_ WTC, PTG, WHS and PBS (Pittsburg Suburb).  AF1 will require
              \_ WT1, WT2, PTG, and PBS (Pittsburg Suburb).  AF1 will require
                 a later version that can support a moving destination.
        \_ We are working hard to update M$ Flight Sim and integrate it
           into the Arabic Edition Windows XP - Bill G.

9/13    All we hear is that the FBI is doing this, the FBI is doing that.  Is
        the CIA too embarrassed to come out and is hiding under its pillow?
        \_ The CIA cannot be expected to know everything about every plot. This
           isn't "1984". I think the real culprit is US airport security.
           \_ But it seems like the CIA have missed a lot of big incidents in
              recent years: The fall of Berlin Wall, the fall of USSR, the
              bombing of US Embessies in Africa, the attack of USS Cole, and
              Tuesday's attack, to name a few.
        \_ The CIA is too busy to hold press conferences.
        \_ The CIA has been held back from aggressively defending this nation
           and its interests by the namby pamby love peace dope crowd. Its
           time we let them do *WHATEVER* is required to defend america and
           her people.
        \_ The CIA has been held back from aggressively defending this nation
           and its interests by the namby pamby love peace dope crowd (it all
           started with JFK and the Bay of Pigs). Its time we let them do
           *WHATEVER* is required to defend america and her people.
           \_ The CIA and NSA budget are at least 100 times as large
              as they were duing the Kennedy era. That does not qualify
              as being "held back." How much support will we insist
              on giving these fools before we realize the entire
              system should be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch?
        \_ Executive Order 12333 will be lifted very soon i predict
           But CIA Director George Tenet will lose his job over this.
           \_ What's 12333 about?
              \_ Take a look at:
                 http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/eo12333.html
           \_ do you maybe mean specifically section 2.11 of 12333?
              \_ Most likely sections 2.4-6, 8, 9, 11 and 12 will
                 change.

9/13    http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/sep/13josy.htm

9/14    Some of us are anti-NSA people.  But now that this has happened,
        have we changed our views about the role of NSA?
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/09/13/national0614EDT0518.DTL
        \_ I'm not one of the heavily anti-NSA folks, but I might be after
           this. Why should we expand the powers of an agency that was
           apparently taken completely by surprise by this? I would
           suggest that perhaps the current set of agencies with their
           WWII-era agendas should be replaced with a new agency with
           a contemporary understanding of what to pay attention to.
           \_ Same to CIA.
           \_ silly sodans, who do you think would staff this "new" agency?
             \_ I volunteer you, to start with. Only some pinko
                commie would fail to rise to the challenge in our hour
                of need.
                \_ I volunteer to arrest anyone who uses the words
                   "pinko commie" in a non-ironic sort of way.
                   \_ Relax, I was just trying to make a point about how
                      federal agencies end up the way they do. I do
                      a lot of public sector related work. Good people
                      like, perhaps, yourself, stay away because they
                      mistrust the agencies. Granted my work is mainly
                      with more mundane outfits like the Bureau of Indian
                      Affairs or the Dept of Justice --ulysses
                      \_ article says that the gov't lost top talent to
                         the dot com's and other place.  The gov't doesn't
                         pay that much.
                         \_ The pay issue is real, but the larger problem
                            that I see that is my friends on the left and
                            and the right disagree on everything except
                            their disdain for the gov't and anybody who
                            works for the gov't. Travesties like this will
                            re-occur until something is done to
                            re-establish some sense of respect for working
                            for the gov't. I don't know if this is possible
                            though. Things have gotten so bad. --ulysses
                            \_  I don't have any disdain for the government.
                               I just think they put way too much emphasis
                               on high-tech/electronic surveillance which
                               is great for collecting information from
                               the Russian millitary and innocent US
                               citizens but doesn't really do anything to
                               stop terrorism. We need spies, not satellites
                               and the government should pour more money
                               into the CIA than it does into the NSA
                               (not the other way around).
                                \_ I could hardly argue, and I hope current
                                   events may bring others to that POV, as
                                   well. --ulysses
                            \_ Point made.
                         \_ I'd be willing to work for free if it means
                            that this sort of bs can be prevented. I have
                            to admit, based on my work experience at nasa
                            I always though of gov't workers as lazy bums
                            sitting on thier arses playing solitare and
                            living off the labors of others (taxes). These
                            types of individuals need to go. We can never
                            again be complacent. Eternal vigilence is the
                            price of freedom.
                      a lot of public sector related work. --ulysses
                            that this sort of bs can be prevented.
        \_ Israel has much better human intelligence capability.  Don't know
           about the post-KGB Russia.
        \_ Israel has much better human intelligence capability.
           \_ So why don't they go after bin Laden for us? It's about time they
              did something for us for a change.

9/14    Passenger Mark Bingham (on the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania)
        was a '94 or '95 Cal grad. Contrary to news that said he was
        flying out to California on business, he was also coming out
        to be the usher at a wedding of another Cal student (this
        from a friend of mine who worked at 1 WTC, but who was outside
        the building at the time of the crash)

9/14
I wish I was writing many of you under better circumstances, but as
many of you know, I am an employee of Lehman Brothers in NYC and my
office is located at 1 World Trade Center (the one with the antenna)
on the 38th floor. I had been at the office since 6:45am because of
meetings, and yes, I was in the building when it all happened.
<DEAD>www.tribrothers.com/brian/wtc.html<DEAD>

9/14
Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/plane.phone.call/index.html
        \_ He was a three time rugby champion with Cal.
           \_ Which means he's probably one of the people who fought
              the hijackers.
                \_ yup.  there were supposedly around two to three
                   people or so who were over six feet tall weighing
                   more than 200 pounds
        /___________/
        okay, so you got 3 people who are so tall that they need to crouch
        and so heavy that they have a hard time going through the isle
        fighting 5-6 crazy militant Arab guys who have trained their entire
        life for hand combat and could probably break your neck using bare
        hands. Good odds I tell ya.
        \_ How small are you?  6' 200lb, is fine except when sitting in
           coach seats.  And I think you overstate the abilities of
           suicidal terrorists.  They're not used to victims resisting.
        \_ I hear the plan was to fart and then sit on the terrorists.
        \_ In wake of recent events, every air traveler should be trained to
           break the necks of terrorists using their bare hands. It seems
           like an essential skill.
           \_ sounds like a theme for a Jet Li movie.

9/14
I wish I was writing many of you under better circumstances, but as
many of you know, I am an employee of Lehman Brothers in NYC and my
office is located at 1 World Trade Center (the one with the antenna)
on the 38th floor. I had been at the office since 6:45am because of
meetings, and yes, I was in the building when it all happened.
<DEAD>www.tribrothers.com/brian/wtc.html<DEAD>

9/14
Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/plane.phone.call/index.html
        \_ this is very heartening to hear.
        \_ Another recount of the story:
           http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/09/13/MN18608.DTL

9/12    [Summarized: <DEAD>safe.millennium.berkeley.edu]<DEAD>

9/13    heard that another flight out of JFK had 3 arabians who got in an
        argument at 9am in the plane still loading passengers at the gate.
        they asked them to leave the planet but refused.. they called the
        police but by the time they arrived the 3 arabians vanished.
        They better follow up on those 3 guys cuz they are still out there.
        \_ just cause they are arab?  is it any wonder that somebody picked a
           fight with them and got into an argument?  and I assume you mean
           "leave the plane"?
           \_ idiot, it was during the day right when a plane hit the twc at
              9am, they were suspicious and behaved irratically and were asked
              to leave and refused, if they were innocent why would the run
              from the police?
              \_ sounds like you're the idiot. you get in a fight with someone,
                 you see cops, you stop and walk away. no matter what race
                 or where. and it's erratic, dipshit. -ali
                 \_ sounds like you're the idiot. Say you get into an accident
                    (automobile) and the other person starts aruging with you
                    (as is frequently the case), according to your logic, you
                    would get into your car and drive off if you saw the cops.
                    Damn that's great thinking. dipshit.
                    \_ running away from the scene of the crime in that case
                       is illegal, nimrod. walking away from an argument with
                       your possee is not. you should just have the sense now
                       to delete your post and remove evidence of your
                       inability to make analogies. -ali
                       \_ By fight, I assumed you meant blows (ie assualt
                          which is a crime), rather than a recess pissing
                          match between 2nd graders. I'm sorry I didn't
                          understand your pansy world view better.
                          Furthermore, why the hell would you walk away
                          when the cops showed up? You should just stick
                          around and explain the situation, UNLESS you
                          are guilty and don't want to get caught.
                          \_ There is a big difference between a fight and
                          a car accident.  Further, the original poster said
                          "argument", not fight.  How did you make the assumption
                          that blows were involved?  -mlee
                          \_ I'm responding to Ali not the orignal post.
           \_ first, you didn't say it happened on Tuesday.  some flights are
              resuming today, no?  you also didn't say they behaved erratically,
              just that they got into an argument.  If someone asked me to
              "leave the planet", hell yes, I'd refuse too.  and why would they
              vanish?  well, given the amount of anti-arab sentiment going
              around, why would you want to stick around for a NY mob to get
              you?
              \_ what anti arab sentiment, it was tuesday at 9am twink
                 and since 11 am tuesday , there have been no flights, put
                 2 and 2 together moron
                \_ wrong.  some flights have resumed today.  I'm sorry that I
                   haven't been keeping track of exactly which airports have
                   resumed operation at what time for which flights.
                 \_ wrong.  some flights are resuming today.  I'm sorry that I
                    haven't kept track of which airports have resumed operation
                    at what times for which flights.  next time be more specific
                    in your story, twink.
                    at what times for which flights to know you were talking
                    about Tuesday.  next time be more specific in your story.
                    (fyi, I checked.  NYC airports opened for limited travel
                    at 6 AM Eastern today.)
        \_ Wasn't the proper procedure in this situation (someone boarded
           a plane and then left) that the airline should clear out all
           passengers and hand-carry and check-in luggage, scan the plane,
           and then re-check-in everyone and everything before taking off?
           --- yuen
           \_ I hope not. Why would the presence of a person mean that a bomb
              could be on board? If the bomb got past the security the first
              time it would do it the second time.
              \_ Not true. Yuen mentioned that the luggage should be hand
                 checked the second time.
              \_ The second check will probably be a bit more complete.
           \_ sounds like you're the idiot. you get in a fight with someone,
              you see cops, you stop and walk away. no matter what race
              or where. and it's erratic, dipshit. -ali
              \_ dipshit, the stewardess asked them.. there was no one else
                 involved there was no fight between them and other passengers
              \_ Great logic. The next time I get into an accident with
                 someone and they start arguing with me and I see the cops
                 show up, I'll get in my car and drive off. Yeah. Dipshit.
                 If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear
                 from the police. You should stay put and explain the
                 situation. Only people who are afraid (or guilty) run
                 away.
          \_ you mean wtc, not twc.  and you didn't say it happened on Tuesday.
             some flights are resuming today, no?  you also didn't say they
             behaved erratically, just that they got into an argument.  If
             someone asked me to "leave the planet", hell yes, I'd refuse too.
             and why would they vanish?  well, given the amount of anti-arab
             sentiment going around, why would you want to stick around?
              \_ I think the idea is to make sure everything on board belongs
                 to someone on board, so as to prevent non-suicidal bombers.
                 Of course this won't prevent suicidal bombers and hijackers.
                 I thought it was FAA procedure.  --- yuen

9/13    Big brother is not the soln. to the problem:
        http://www.cato.org/dispatch/09-13-01d.html
        http://www.cato.org/dailys/10-02-96.html
        \_ "Benjamin Franklin said, people who 'give up essential liberty to
           obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety,'"
        \_ So much for America's love of freedom.
        \_ "Benjamin Franklin said, people deserve neither liberty nor freedom"
           \_ Ben Franklin said that? I don't think so.

9/13    "Kill them all and let God sort the dead."
        \_ Apparently that's what the people in the plane thought, too.

9/13    Well, the anti-crypto people are at it again:
        http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46816,00.html
        \_ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
           safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin:
           Motto of the Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

9/13    Vladimir Lukin, a deputy speaker of the Russian parliament:
        "U.S. foreign policy has been characterized by a high degree of
        self-confidence, complacency and intoxication with its own power
        following the Cold War. If the U.S. prefers to pretend that it rules
        the world, such myopia will continue to result in horrible acts of
        terror."
        \_ If Russia could get back to as strong as in the USSR era, they
           would do the same too.
           \_ that's not the point

9/13    So glad Clinton is not in office, but of course this being the CSUA
        populated by liberal beatnicks I wont have most people agreeing
        with me. It's so ha-ha that Clinton is stuck in Australia unable
        to come back to make his grandstanding photo-op with an intern.
        \_ It's amazing what idiocy or lack of maturity many CSUA
           Republicans show in this thread, particularly during a
           time like this.
        \_ They brainwashed you good.
           \_ Pluz! Albright, Berger, and Cohen were the most incompetent
              leaders. They cut short the career of a fine officer (Clark)
              because they didn't want to piss off the Russians. They
              hamstringed the military much like LBJ did in Nam during
              Kosovo. Powell, Rice, and Rumsfeld are all veterans, who are
              doing their 2nd tour of Washington already.
              \_ Kosovo? You mean that place that the Republicans said we
                 should never be involved in? The place where the military
                 was gonna put in Apaches until they realized they had no
                 way to retrieve lost pilots? Powell? The guy who recommended
                 stopping the Gulf war before destroying the core of Iraqi
                 military? Rice? The lady whose speciality is SOVIET politics
                 and whose advice made Bush look like an idiot in Europe?
                 Rumsfeld? The one who is pushing for missle defense despite
                 the fact no one has developed a VIABLE system yet?
                 \_ I agree these guys are second string. I'd feel a whole
                    lot safer if Weinberger, MacFarlane et. al. were in the
                    WH, but I'd take who we've got now over Clinton's team
                    any day.
                    \_ Wasn't he the guy who assumed the role of the
                       president ahead of the House speaker and the
                       President pro-tempre?
                       \_ how quickly we forget our history - you are talking
                          about General Alexander Haig, former deputy NSA
                          and Chief of staff under Nixon, and secofstate under
                          reagan when he was shot and claimed he was Prez
                          \_ Haig was pretty bad ass.
                    \_ Yes, they did so well in getting Marines killed in
                       Lebanon and selling arms to the Iranians and Iraqis.
                       Anyone want a Stinger I Missle complete with Afghani
                       Anyone want a Stinger I Missle complete with Afgani
                       Anyone want a Stinger I Missle complete with Afganhi
                       instructions? Crap on military planes, but swell on
                       passenger ones.
                       \_ I guess you missed the part about a free poland,
                          the fall of the berlin wall and the utter and
                          total destruction of soviet communism. Zero Option
                          was a total success.
                       passenger planes.
        \_ if Clinton had still been in office, Bin Laden would have simply
           bribed him with lots of young women.
           \_ I prefer Double D's, one for each hand, in case anyone is
              interested in bribing me. - Bill C.
        \_ I agree with you. Clinton/Gore would have been a disaster, they'd
           be calling Sharon and telling me hand over Jerusalem and calling
           Saddam and telling him the sanctions are gone and he can invade
           which ever nation he wanted. The talk would be of "understanding"
           and our arrogance.
           \_ I think he'd invite bin Laden to a summit with all the western
              world's leaders at the top of the U.N. building.
              \_ I prefer the Playboy Mansion to the UN building. Those
                 little bunnies sure are cute. - Bill C.
           \_ Garbage.  Clinton stood up to Milosevic and spanked his arse,
              unlike Republican weenies.  Clinton is my hero!
              \_ He's my hero too, and he's really good at spanking ass!
                 - Monica L.
                 \_ Spanking your ass with his what?
                    \_ If I didn't tell Linda, why should I tell you
                       what my president spanks me with? - Monica
                 \_ I did not spank that woman. Monica Lewinsky. - Bill C
                    \_ Can you spank me tonight Mr. Pres.? I've been a
                       very bad girl. - Monica
              \_ Yeah, while his adamant refusal to send in ground forces
                 allowed Milosevic to kill and displace pretty near every
                 ethnic Albanian in the country.  Way to go Bill.
                 \_ Who cares about the damned Albanians? They breed like rats.
        \_ Man, you Clinton/Gore haters really do need to get a life. In
           the face of tragedy, you turn it into petty politics.
              \_ I prefer the Playboy Mansion to the UN building. - Bill C.

9/13    And I though the idiots were just in Palestine and Egypt:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/nyregion/13MUSL.html

9/13    Has FAA ever considered putting parachuttes into airplanes, like
        mandating lifeboats on cruise boats?
        \_ My guess is that they are prohibitively expensive to be
           implemented everywhere. Anyone know how much they cost?
        \_ Put some in the upper floors of skyscrapers too.
        \_ Seal the fucking cockpit. There is NO REASON for passengers
           to be able to access the cockpit of a commercial aircraft.
                \_ I was reading sometihng that said they CAN'T put a big
                   wall sepereating the cockpit of a plane for structural
                   reasons.  Right now there is a locked door but it is
                   possible to break that door down if you are determined.
                   Any stronger and the plane would not be able to handle
                   stresses it needs to be able to be safe.
                   \_ I read that Israeli planes have a reenforced bulkhead
                      and an armored door along with weapons in the cockpit
                      and uniformed and plainclothes air mashals. We'll
                      probably get the same shortly.
                        \_ E1 A1 also has 2 air marshalls. That's why they're
                           one of the safest and expensive airlines.
                           \_ What good is an air marshall if the the hijackers
                              take him out first and then sieze his gun? It
                              seems like we would be in worse shape at that
                              point. And what if the air marshall get sick,
                              or goes wacko or hijacks the plane himself?
                              \_ I thought that they always picked random
                                 seats for the marshall and they dress
                                 them up in regular civillian clothing.
                              \_ you don't jsut sieze the gun of an isreali
                                 special forces officer.
           \_ What if the pilot and nav crew need to check the
              avionics or the engine? Big problem if they are locked
              in and the flight crew has been killed.
           \_ What if they need to take a wiz during a 10hour flight?
              \_ Add disposable bags to thier armored flight suits.
        \_ Its not that easy to "bail out", most people would die trying
           and get splattered all over someones front yard, very messy.
        \_ airplanes are still one of the safest form of transportation.
           \_ In terms of # accidents per travel, or # accidents per mile of
              travel?
              \_ both. airplane trips are general between larger distances,
                 so having the first implies that you'll have the second.

1460    "In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
         Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,
         while the fortress endures,
         the great leader will succumb,
         the third big war will begin when the big city is burning"
                -Nostradamous

9/14
I wish I was writing many of you under better circumstances, but as
many of you know, I am an employee of Lehman Brothers in NYC and my
office is located at 1 World Trade Center (the one with the antenna)
on the 38th floor. I had been at the office since 6:45am because of
meetings, and yes, I was in the building when it all happened.
<DEAD>www.tribrothers.com/brian/wtc.html<DEAD>

9/14
Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/plane.phone.call/index.html
        \_ this is very heartening to hear.

9/14
Passengers on board the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that
crashed in rural Pennsylvania Tuesday apparently decided to attack the
terrorists who had commandeered the plane, according to family members
of one passenger.
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/plane.phone.call/index.html
        \_ this is very heartening to hear.

9/13    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba083652e59.htm
        http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba086363031.htm
        I think it's clear at this point massive retaliation
        is the only option.  Unless future criminals, their
        supporters and their associates think twice because of the
        consequences, this cycle of violence will continue indefinitely.
        Ultimately, much like the nuclear bombs that ended WWII,
        it will save lives on both sides.
        \_ so you support something akin to Hirohima and Nagasaki?
           that's sick
          \_ No, I think Nukes are too much, but the analogy
             still holds.

9/12    U.S. Foreign Policy
        http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ba03b327f42.htm

9/12    whoa.  wcbs right now is funny, the commentator on the newscorp
        is goading all his guests:
        "Why wait, when we have a bunch of Sherlock Holmes going on, that
        we can't just bomb Afghanistan?  We KNOW it's Bin Laden!"

9/12    Disgusting
        http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba0108928d9.htm
        \ What is so disgusting about that? Liberal media beatnicks have
          no clue how to defend a country. Now is the time to arm.
          \_ Conservative recklessness with asserting US power in the world
             got us into the this mess.
             \_ You are 100 % wrong.  Who bombed Serbia? Who was held in disdain
                by the CIA and FBI? Who bombed an aspirin factory in retaliation
                for terrorist attacks? Who emasculated the military and intelligence
                agencies?  Thats youre answer.
        \_ Screw George Bush.  You want a man with backbone?  Get Rudy
           Giuliani.  New York lives forever!
        \_ Screw George Bush.   You impotent Republicans put him in power
           because HE WAS THE BEST MAN YOU HAD.  Hear the quiver in his voice
           as he recites his speeches?  What kind of president lacks
           leadership so badly that OTHER people HAVE to ASK Americans to
           stand behind the president?   If he was any kind of leader, we'd
           naturally look up to him!
           You want a man with backbone?  Get Rudy Giuliani. I'm a liberal
           yes, but that man has CHARACTER! NEW YORK LIVES FOREVER!i
           yes, but that man has CHARACTER! NEW YORK LIVES FOREVER!
           \_ yeah Guilani is great man - cheating on his wife, and living
              with two fags.
           \_ Real patriotic - you should be proud.
              \_ Yeah, patriotism will save lives and keep us out of trouble.
                 Patriotism is the best cure for any ailment.
           \_ the best man we had still beat the best man you had.

9/12    Guys.  Stop with the hate speech.  It's not cool. - paolo
        \_ yeah, it's okay to blow up innocent people then say keep cool..
        then repeat the same shit, then say keep kewl... enuf is enuf.
        \_ um, i was refering to the hate speech that was here earlier.
           it has been removed, luckily, and really has no place here. free
           speech is one thing.. you have right to that. but you have a
           responsibility along with that to act like adults. - paolo
           \_ We have a right to that unless you're deleting it every 3 mins.
           \_ We have a right to that unless you're deleting it.
              \_ You're damn right i'll delete nazi propaganda.  I belive
                 i have the backing of the politburo on that. - paolo

9/12    So why do the western powers antagonize the Arabs the way they do?
        \_ So who do Arabs antagonize westerners the way they do?
        \_ So why do Arabs antagonize westerners the way they do?
        a) why does Israel insist on creating "settlements" in Arab areas?
           \_ Because God told them to.
        b) why does Israel insist that Jerusalem must belong only to them?
           \_ As opposed to say the PLO who will not let jews or christians
              or any non-muslim into Jerusalem? Yeah let's just hand it over
              to a bunch of inhuman thugs.
              \_ This comment is idiotic. Non-Muslims go to Jerusalem all
                 the time.
                 \_ Because it is (or was) in Jewish hands. If turned over
                    to the PLO, all access to Jerusalem will be restricted
                    to muslims.
                    \_ Historically, when Jeruslam was in Arab or Muslim
                       hands, it was open to Christian pilgrims from around
                       the world.
        c) why has Israel used live fire on rock-throwing Palestinian youths,
           treated them like second hand citizens, subjected children to random
           violent interrogations and searches and seizures?
           \_ why does the media only show the rock throwing, and not
              the molotovs and shots against the Israeli troups?
           \_ Because the PLO employs children and youths as delivery
              mechanisms for its bombs etc.
              Oh yeah, let's not forget that the PLO also uses live fire,
              its just that you don't see it on CNN.
              \_ you do see it on CNN. but obviously these children are only
                 going to hate the more when all of them are treated with the
                 assumption of guilt. anyway Palestine is just one issue and
                 I think not the most important one to the rest of the Arabs;
                 palestinian terrorists seem mostly to target israel.
           \_ Perhaps you should read this:
            http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-horowitz091001.shtml
              The PLO isn't kids who are feeling bad.
              \_ written by a jew.
        c) why has/does the United States prop up corrupt regimes in
           South America, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. etc... just to secure oil
           and stop the "communist plot to take over the world"? CIA-assisted
           coups all over the place supporting the same dictators we publicly
           denounce.
        Terrorists aren't crazy. They're incredibly desperate. If you think
        about it, terrorism is the only deterrance to the western powers in
        their conduct. If you were living under extreme oppression and the US
        was the ultimate power behind your oppressors you'd cheer too when a
        blow was made that actually meant something to them. There are so many
        more issues here than people understand it's sickening. Of course the
        tragedy is sickening too. But it's not like these muslims just randomly
        hate the us for no reason, and blow themselves up for jollies.
        \_ You should read this:
           http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14274-2001Sep11.html
        \_ What oppression? Most of those Arab countries are prospering
           with oil exports. I would make the exception with Iraq, who
           invaded another country, Iran, who kidnapped US embassy workers
           and has since sponsored terrorism, and the Palestinians who
           may have some cause for rebellion but not to the point of
           crashing planes into buildings.
           \_ BTW Iran is *not* an Arab country.  It's a Persian country.
              http://www.freep.com/jobspage/arabs/arab2.html
           \_ In Iraq, most of the people are dirt poor. Only a few control oil.
        \_ I'd want to the police to shoot live rounds at rock throwers, too.
           There's this silly misconception among people that they don't
           deserve to be shot at if they throw fist-sized rocks at soldiers.
           \_ at children? maybe that's because you're a sick fuck.
              \_ a "child" with a handgrenade is still an enemy that needs
                 to be taken out.
                 \_ Too bad most motd bleeding hearts don't understand this.
              \_ nah, it's usually kids intermingled with young adults
                 oh yeah, and calm down silly
                 \_ tell that to those advocating turning the middle east into
                    pavement and pointing to islam as the driving force here.
                    tell that to all the western leaders who spout predictable
                    crap about "terrorism will not stand" without any blip about
                    why we suffer terrorism. even the media has every fact you
                    might want to know...except in the faq there's no entry for
                    "why".
                    \_ nah, you can tell them that.  I'm just making a single
                       point about rock throwing
        \_ The PLO can lock up individuals in Palesitian radical factions
           they suspect of planning suicide bombings.
           The Israelis could stop building settlements.
           Now, tell me why neither has occurred?
           \_ Because the palestinians want more land, and Israel wants
              all of their land back. You know, the land they had for
              a long time, promised to them by God?
              \_ You fucking idiot.
              \_ Man, your ignorance is truly frightening.
                 \_ Your unfounded namecalling is truely frightening.
                    Are you incapable of logical refutation, then?
                    Display your "enlightenment" in the face of "ignorance"
                    \_ Why?  Unfounded namecalling takes much less effort.
                    \_ I've got yer "logical refutation" right here pal.
              \_ By your "logic", most of Europe should belong to Italy.
                 The US should be obliterated and the native Americans'
                 descendants given control. And I should own the world, since
                 mine are the Old Gods of Atlantis, who granted my people all
                 dominions of Earth. This was 20000 BC by the way.
                 \_ so what criteria do you propose to decide which
                    group owns the land? current possesion?
                    Okay, in that case Israel currently possesses a large
                    chunk of that land, so they should kick all the
                    self-professed palestinians out, and immediately built
                    settlements on every square inch of unsettled land.
                    When they surround a "palestinian" city, then they can
                    be considered as posessing the vicinity, so Israal should
                    be able to kick them out of those areas too.
                    You're missing the up-side of the biblical
                    interpretation. The bible has specific BOUNDARIES on
                    the land of Israel. Once they get that land, there will
                    be no further aggression from their side.
                    Unlike the palestinians, who just want as much land
                    as they can grab peacefully, and then as much on top
                    of that as they can get by force.
                    \_ dude, the bible is not a legal fucking document.
                       your obvious bias means this conversation can go nowhere.
                       the boundaries in the bible were an empire at its height,
                       in ancient times for a relatively brief period. a lot of
                       different peoples have lived there before and since. if
                       you don't understand compromise you're as vile as those
                       bombers.
                       \_ You cannot compromise with these people. To believe
                          that it is possible to do so foolish and ignorant.
                          The only "compromise" or "settlement" (pardon the pun)
                          that will appease the muslim race is the utter and
                          total destruction of the nation of israel, the jewish
                          race and anyone found to be sympathetic to zionism.
                          To any sane human being, these are unacceptable terms
                          which can never be accepted.
                          which can never be accepted.  - ntop
                          \_ you learned your lessons well, sonny.
                             there is no muslim race.
                             secondly, building settlements in palestinian areas
                             is far from even attempting to compromise. sounds
                             like you're the one who is unable to compromise.