Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:September:12 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
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2001/9/12 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22388 Activity:insanely high 57%like:21883
9/11  Motd poll, if you were on a terrorist hijacked plane and the
      terrorists were armed with knifes and cardboard cutters, would
      you be willing to rush the bastards?
      Yes: ..
      Yes: after 9/11/2001, there's no choice anymore.  YOU MUST RETAKE
           THE CABIN OR DIE.
      No:
        \_ Think about this.  Everybody on board thouht that it would be
           just another hostage situation-- sit tight, don't stand out, and
           you'll survive.
           \_ agreed.  obviously in retrospect, the answer would be yes.
           \_ yes. if you knew it was life or death then of course; otherwise...
           \_ My poll is based on the following. Assume 50 non terrorists
              and 5 crew on the plane. Of the 50 assume that 20 are too
              old or too young or too weak to be of any use. Also assume
              5 terrorists on the plane. Its 7 on 1. If they just had knifes
              there is no way that you can knife 7 people, shoot yes, knife
              no. The passengers could have taken them out. Game Over.
           \_ My poll is based on the following. Assume 5 terrorists, 50
              passengers and and 5 crew on the plane. Of the 50 assume
              that 20 are too old or too young or too weak to be of any
              use in the situation.
              Its 7 on 1. If they just had knifes there is no way that you
              can knife 7 people who are attacking you, shoot yes, knife no.
              The passengers could have easily taken them out. Game Over.
              Yeah you might get hurt, you might even die, but its sure
              better than letting the bastards get away with whatever they
              are planning.
              \_ Think about this instead:  the hijackers bluffed that they had
                 a bomb.  Now how many volunteers do you have?
                 \_ from another perspective, this could give passengers the
                    sense that they're all going to die anyway and have nothing
                    to lose.
                    \_ Exactly, even the women (esp. the moms) will be
                       willing to take out the bastards. I'd say that
                       its 10 on 1 if they say they've got a bomb.
              \_ Think about this instead:  the hijackers bluffed that they had a
                 bomb.  Now how many volunteers do you have?
              \_ what if they're just planning to fly to Havana?  Wouldn't
                 you feel stupid getting killed to stop it?  -tom
                   \_ Much better getting killed than getting stuck
                      in fidel's little hell hole with a bunch of
                      terrorists and anti-american commie bastards.
                      Oops I forgot you like anti-american commie
                      Oops forgot you like anti-american commie
                      bastards.
                      in fidel's little hell hole.
              \_ assume the plane has narrow aisles. assume they have a hostage.
                 assume half the passengers are women and only half the men
                 are willing to put their lives on the line in the face of 5
                 crazy unreasonable trained fucks with knives. then figure you
                 have no chance to organise anything or discuss with others.
                 figure there's no particular reason to think they're suicidal.
                 \_ Okay, in your case there are still about 13 people willing
                    to take on the bastards. All you need to do is get heavy
                    carry on baggage and start hitting or tripping terrorists.
                    They will get confused and this will screw up thier plans,
                    long enough for the pilot to get a message out, which would
                    be enough for the SAMs to lock on, just in case we couldn't
                    get control of the situation.
                    Anyway, I think that I'll learn how to break necks before
                    getting on another plane. Seems to me that this is knowledge
                    that will be quite useful.
                    \_ why should the pilot need to get a message out for air
                       traffic controllers to realize that something is wrong?
                       \_ Course deviations could be due to communications
                          failure and or mechanical failure. ATC will need a
                          message to let the SAMs know that its okay to lock
                          on.
                          \_ there are no SAMs readily deployed in U.S.
                             soil. Nor can the military act upon a civilian
                             aircraft without the declaration of martial law
                             \_ Martial law must have been declared today,
                                because the F16s that escorted planes into
                                SFO said this "deviate from course and you
                                because the f16s that escorted planes into
                                sfo said this "deviate from course and you
                                will be destroyed".
                                And they are not going to tell you about the
                                SAMs. Ames had them, but you didn't know that
                                did you?
                \_ Wouldn't narrow aisles be to your advantage? They could
                   not bum rush you. Then you could steven segal their ass
                   one by one.
                   \_ From my own experience and people I've talked to,
                      you're not going to be able to do anything to someone
                      with a knife unless you're willing to be seriously
                      injured.  The only options I can see are 1) grab
                      something like luggage (mentioned above) or 2) accept
                      that you're going to get hurt and impale yourself on
                      the weapon to keep them from using it further.
                      \_ I'd go with impale myself and make life miserable
                         for the terrorist. If I'm going to die anyway I've
                         got nothing to lose.
        \_ Even the odds. Bring your leatherman with you. I've flown with
           it several times. Nobody questions it. (Maybe they should...)
           \_ I think that we should all learn to kill people with our
              bare hands. When the pull a knife, you break thier neck.
        \_ They probably carved up the flight crew to intimidate the rest
           of the passengers.
            \_ That would make me more likely to rush 'em. Though, if 3 of
               the five just sit there with knives to the stewardess' throats
               then there's not much you can reasonably do.
               \_ Can't hijack a plane if 3 of 5 are occupied by hostages.
                  Anyway, if they cut the throats of the stewardesses they
                  still have the bodies in thier hands, its an advantage
                  to you when you rush them.
            \_ Yes. You should use the body parts of the crew as weapons.
               If enough blood is spilled, they might slip and fall. Then,
               you can open the emergency doors and hope they slide out.
        \_ by-stander effect?  remember psychology 1?
        \_ I don't mean to get off-topic, but I've been studying Japanese
           sword for a few years, and one of the important lessions I've
           learned is that if you are willing to die, you have a huge
           advantage.  All this talk about fighting back is fine and might
           have actually worked, but the terrorists were willing to die,
           which makes them much more formidable, plus they were the ones
           with the weapons.  - mikeym
           \_ Yes but, if the passengers are willing to die as well (or
              they know that they will die anyway) you have no advantage.
              Shear numbers will win.
        \_ Consider now that passengers are going to be less likely to
           sit by idly if they get hijacked.  -geordan
                 figure there's particular reason to believe they're suicidal.
                    long enough for the pilot to get a message out.
                    Hopefully its long enough for the SAMs to lock on.
                    be enough for the SAMs to lock in, just in case we couldn't
           \_ When they start to carve up the flight crew, you jump them.
              That will confuse them enough to take them out.
            \_ That would make me more likely to rush 'em.  Though, if 3 of the
               five just sit there with knives to the stewardess' throats then
               there's not much you can reasonably do.
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:22389 Activity:nil
9/11    http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX/002-1242838-2568830
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22390 Activity:high
9/11  Some mass email I got. look for original quote on
        <DEAD>www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm<DEAD>
      There will be a great thunder (collapsing of buildings),Two brothers
      (World Trade Buildings) torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress
      endures (America), the great leader will succumb(whoevers in charge
      of destruction), The third big war will begin when the big city is
      burning(New York)" - Nostradamus 1654
        \_ wouldn't "the fortress endures" be more like the Pentagon?
        \_ feh. There will be a great thunder (i farted), two brothers torn
           apart by Chaos (my shits) while the fortress endures (my ass), the
           great leader will succumb (me), the third big war (battle with
           constipation) will begin when the big city is burning (my
           hemhorroids -- NY isn't "burning" anyway).
        \_ Nostradamus didn't say this, see http://fury.com/article/925.php
           great leader will succumb (me), the third big war will begin when the
           big city is burning (my hemhorroids -- NY isn't "burning" anyway).
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:22391 Activity:nil
9/11    usenet prophecy? (sorry for the long url)
<DEAD>groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&th=54ab4d241c34e0cc&seekm=3b8fd177%40monitor.lanset.com#link1<DEAD>
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:22392 Activity:insanely high
9/11    Why is most of the Arab world completely fucked up? What's the problem?
        Is it the religion, or the manipulation by totalitarian gov'ts? Or what?
        \_ I suspect it's an unfortunate mix of religious fundamentalism
           and fucked up middle eastern foreign policy.
        \_ Its the religion. That religion has had problem with everyone,
           jews, christians, hindus and buddhists. The only solution is
           nuke the bastards.
           \_ haven't (radical) christians had a problem with everyone too?  the
              only solution is to totally outlaw religion.
           \_ this is the reason why the hell I'm not religious.  Historically,
              look at how many lives have been lost over religion.
              \_ The difference really is that most christians aren't
                 radically, and even the radicals don't do things like
                 radical, and even the radicals don't do things like
                   \_ dipshit.  What just happened in Ireland?  Again?
                      \_ One country with problem christians vs. dozens
                         of countries with problem muslims. These people
                         need to be eliminated.
                 this. In comparisions most muslims are radicals, and
                 if the celebrations in Palestine are any indications,
                 relish this type of activity.
                 I still can't believe they were celebrating in Palestine.
                 Don't they know that if they had anything to do with this
                 they will be wiped of the face of the earth for all time?
                 \_ typical, self-centered, holier-than-thou Christian view.
                    "Christians aren't radically" [sic], "most muslims are
                    radical." Please.
                    \_ I'm not christian.
                 \_ did it ever occur to you that when you see people
                    in Palestinia celebrating what happened yesterday,
                    that it might be worth your time to ask why they
                    were reacting the way they did instead of condemning
                    them for doing so?
                        \_ It's the same way fucked up people here cheer
                           when anything blows up in another part of the
                           world. Doesn't mean Christians hate the Mid
                           East or Ireland or Asia or anything...some
                           people just are like that.
                           \_ Bullshit.  Do the people here cheer when
                              they hear about the latest bombing in
                              Israel? it runs deeper than fucked up people
                              cheering whenever something blows up "over
                              there."
                     \_ There is no valid reason for celebrating the
                        destruction of civilian targets. Those who do
                        are no better than those who committed this
                        act.
             \_ Nah, don't blame religion when it's your fucking bad-ass
                corrupted human nature.  Think Stalin, Mao, Hitler,
                Caligula, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, etc.
                Caligula, Genghis Khan.
                \_ The only good muslim I can think of was Akbar. And
                   even he wasn't that good. Its muslims. They need to
                   be eliminated.
2001/9/12 [Recreation/Computer] UID:22397 Activity:insanely high
9/12    Some people try to deal using humor:
        http://www.binaryvista.com/WTC/M-ebay.jpg
        \_ that's humorous?  -tom
        \_ Making fun over thousands of innocent death?
        \_ Making fun over thousands of innocent deaths?
        \_ Making fun over thousands of innocence death?
           \_ Hey, if it works for the bastard palestinians.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22398 Activity:nil
9/12    Anyone know who is that Middle East/Israel correspondent for NBC
        with the short hair.  First name is Donna?
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22399 Activity:high
9/12    <DEAD>www.stratfor.com/home/0109112355.htm<DEAD>
        US and counter terrorism.
        \_ What got to me in this article (which is why I posted it) is the
           notion that, even if we find a single 'corporate' entity to pin
           this on, that it's not going to be over.  That this likely to be
           covert conflict that could go on for months, maybe years.  We may
           be facing many more inscidents of the type we just experienced.
           this on, that it's not going to be over.  That this is likely to be
           a covert conflict that could go on for months, maybe years.  We may
           be facing many more incidents of the type we just experienced.
           I find this somewhat disturbing.
        \_ I think if we allow ourselves to declare war against something
           other than a nation, we can throw away all the legal principles and
           counter-attack and kill as needed.
           \_ The idea is, the US marches in to afganistan, says
              "We know you are hiding Bin Laden: turn him over, or
              be counted as part of his organization -- this makes you
              a target".
              \_ The idea is that we drop a few dozen h bombs from
                 palestine to paksitan. We make the middle east a
                 wasteland for all eternity.
        \_ Why don't we send in the commandos to get that bastard?
            \_ because previously, that would be an act of war.
               Happily, we're now at the point where we dont care if we
               have to declare war to do so.
               have to declare war to d oso.
        \_ Man that site is slow.
2001/9/12 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:22400 Activity:high
9/12    Recall that WWI was a powder keg which exploded when a terrorist
        assasinnated the archduke of Serbia.  Of course, after millions
        of people had died.  We then set in motion another series of events
        which caused WW2, where HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people died.
        Surely, we need a response, but we can't let it explode into all
        out war.  Are you willing to die to get revenge?  Are millions of
        lives worth the revenge?  Just try to stay calm and think carefully.
        VERY CAREFULLY.
        \_ No one will interfere with the US.  Pretty much all nations that
           matter said "this should not go unanswered."  No one will stop the
           US as they plow through the middle east taking out terrorist
           nests with guided rockets and bombs.
        \_ The reason nobody attacks the US like this is the general belief
           that if they did, the US would completely fucking obliterate them.
           Therefore, we must now do so, or our threat is void and further
           attacks will come without fear.
        \_ bullshit. you think you are powerful enough to matter?  this whole
        affair started when that fucker went to the temple mound...escalated
        this shit around, then last week fucking afghani cut off all contact
        wtiht the world.. you think you're "Jack Ryan"... you're a special
        enough person to affect the machinations set into action a year ago
        by a dead man? puh lease.  You'll go along for the ride like the rest
        of us, silly sheep.
        \_ The reason nobody attacks the US like this is the general belief
           that if they did, the US would completely fucking obliterate them.
           Therefore, we must now do so, or our threat is void and further
           attacks will come without fear.
        \_ bullshit. you think you are powerful enough to matter?  this
           whole affair started when that fucker went to the temple mound...
           escalated this shit around, then last week fucking afghani cut
           off all contact with the world.. you think you're "Jack Ryan"...
           you're a special enough person to affect the machinations set into
           action a year ago by a dead man? puh lease.  You'll go along for
           the ride like the rest of us, silly sheep.
        \_ I think the terrorist was Serbian; the archduke was Ferdinand (a
           Hapsburg), from Austria.
           \_ Austrian-Hungarian empire.
        \_ Neville Chamberlain's Ghost? Casualties, in the 10's not 100's
        \_ Neville Chamberlain's Ghost? Casulties, in the 10's not 100's
           of millions, were predominantly borne by Russia (25 million)
           and Germany.  You might take your own advice and consider
           the efficacy of appeasment and concession in the days leading
           to WW II.  Freedom without sacrifice is meaningless.
           \_ Well, obviously by WW2 it was too late.
           \_ Japan and China had comparable casualty figures.
           \_ I disagree.  I think Great Britain declared war at just the
              right time - when Germany invaded Poland.
        \_ I think the terrorist was Serbian, the archduke was a Hapsburg, from
           Austria.
           to WW II.
           \_ 100 million is not overblown.  Including both military and
              civilian casualties, 79 million in the European theatre
              alone.
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:22401 Activity:nil
9/12    Some were going to try to overpower hijackers:
        <DEAD>web.realcities.com/content/rc/news/attack/bayarea/1956233911.htm<DEAD>
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22402 Activity:high
9/11    I found this educational:
        http://msnbc.com/news/627355.asp?cp1=1
        What I find unsettling is Pakistan's nuclear capability.
        I don't find it such a stretch to imagine bin Laden obtaining nuclear
        arms. Smuggling them into US population centers should not be too hard
        either with patience.
        \_ Well, then, perhaps we'd better get him before he can do that?
           \_ Because covert assassination is the AMERICAN WAY!
        \_ He attempted assassination on President of Egypt, PM of Pakistan and
           Crown Prince of Jordan, all of which Islamic countries?
        \_ If the "Star War" laser defense system were implementer, we could
           be using lasers to shoot at his mud huts at real time as soon as
           we locate him with certainty at a particular moment.
           \_ The lasers would just bake the mud, forming an impenetrable
              shield.  Duh.
              \_ Okay, shoot the lasers when he's moving in his vehicles then.
              \_ Okay, shoot the lasers when he's moving between the mud huts
                 in his vehicles then.
                 \_ You just aren't listening.  _Impenetrable_!!!
                    \_ His vehicles running on open deserts are impenetrable?
                       \_ what if he covers the roofs of his vehicles with
                          impenetrable mud?  you're screwed.
                \_ Lasers aren't the answer. Its particle beams and rail
                   guns. We need space based weapons platforms NOW!
           \_ Orbital bombardment is the way to go.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22403 Activity:nil
9/12    Bush to declare war on Jihad.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:22404 Activity:high
9/12    Bush to declare a Jihad against Mohammedian terrorism!
        \_ Motd poll: Should we "nuke and pave" everything between
           jerusalem and kashmir (ie the 90% of the muslim world)
           in order to solve this problem forever?
           \_ that wouldn't have stopped oklahoma city or the Tokyo sarin
              gas attack.
              \_ By this problem, I mean the muslim terrorist jihad
                 problem. I think that we can deal with the other
                 problems as law enforcement issues. This is bigger
                 than law enforcement. The muslim race is threat to
                 peace, freedom and civilization and must be eliminated
                 from the face of the earth.
                 problem.
                 peace, freedom and civilization and must be destroyed.
                 problems as law enforcement issues, but this problem
                 is bigger than law enforcement. The muslim race is
                 threat to peace, freedom, prosperity and civilization
                 and must be eliminated from the face of the earth.
                 \_ You need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and
                    parts of Singapore and Philippines too.
                 \_ We need to nuke Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and
                    parts of Singapore and Philippines too.  Oh, and
                    don't forget India.
                    don't forget India and its 100 million mullahs!
                    \_ India?
                    \_ India?  You mean Pakistan?
                    \_ And the Hsinjiang (sp?) province in China too.
           YES: .
           NO:  ..
                \_ Wow, chamberlain lives!
                   \_ Don't be an idiot.
2001/9/12 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Reference/Religion] UID:22405 Activity:high
9/12    These people need to die:
        <DEAD>sg.news.yahoo.com/010911/1/1fkyw.html<DEAD>
        \_ Agreed.
        \_ ...Rocket-Propelled Grenades!?!???  "Please fire straight up"
        \_ I think it is worthwhile to consider that the Palestinians
           live in a situation where the Israelis use guns against people
           armed with rocks , etc.  Several palestinians have died from
           what many would call oppression.  Isreal is supported financially
           by the US and its not peanuts.  For the US to experience needless
           violence some could consider justified.  I think anyone that is using
           violence is awrong.  Just something to consider before calling for
           the death of people you don't know.  - a swede (yeah, one of those
           neutral f----rs).
           \_ Rock throwers are the ones they put in view of the CNN cameras.
              They don't put the armed assassins and carbombers on CNN. The
              palestinians aren't human they have lost the right to be treated
              and considered as such because of this. I say we wipe them out,
              all of them.
              \_ Funny, I think Hitler used the same thinking.  How quickly
                 people forget their history. - the swede
                 \_ the diference being that the jews of the time werent
                    using weapons to attack people. The palestinians are.
                 \_ The jews in germany did not chear in the streets when
                 \_ The jews in germany did not cheer in the streets when
                    germans civilians die during fire bombings. They were
                    human beings, those things in palestine are not.
                    \_ First of all, how the f do you know what every jew
                        did during those times?  Keep in mind, only those
                        palestinians that are stupid enough to celebrate
                        the loss of lives are reported on TV.  We have the
                        same kind of morons here in the US walking around
                        in white sheets celebrating bombings of african
                        american churches in the US.
                        \_ Granted some Palestinians may not have been
                           involved in the celebration, but they are
                           clearly in the minority throughout the arab
                           world:
http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010912/world/afp/_Bullseye___say_Egyptians_as_they_celebrate_anti-US_attacks.html
                   \_ Second of all, who are you to decide who is human?
                        It is frightening to think that you are using the
                        same justifications as were used in WWII to kill
                        jews, gays, handikapped, gypsies, ...
                        You and your attide revolt me.  I can only hope it is
                        youth talking. - the swede
                        \_ It is people with your attitude that sit idly
                           by while the muslim menace destroys all that is
                           good in this world. There were people like you
                           in my country once. When the muslims came and
                           sacked our temples and homes and murdered our
                           families these people said, give them room.
                           We gave them room. They murdered our relatives
                           and sent their corpses over in trains. They
                           laughed in the streets, and people like you
                           said understand them, accept them, its not
                           thier fault its our fault we must make more
                           room. We did. It hasn't worked. The time for
                           inaction and diplomacy is past, the time for
                           action is now.
        ------------------/
        \_  First of all let me thank you for at least putting your
            statements into context.  This makes it easier to understand
            where you come from.
            Let me make it clear that I am not advocating "sitting idly by."
            This kind of acts have to be dealt with and most likely force
            will be necessary.  What I am objecting to is the use of _blind_
            rage.  You have painted all muslims alike.  You are advocating
            the killing of innocent people when you call for the death of
            celebrating palestinians.  Their behavior is as abhorrent as
            yours.  But all it is, are words, for them and hopefully for you
            as well.  It may sound like BS but the _right_ people has to be
            found and should be punished.  Killing the wrong people will just
            justify another terrorist attack in the mind of some misguided
            suicide bomber/hijacker/whatever.
            I hope I can get you to agree that the action that is needed
            today has to be deliberate and just.  Or, would you rather
            that we kill innocent people just so we can say we had revenge?
            - the swede
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:22406 Activity:high 57%like:22470
9/12    cleanup time: rm -rf /bin/laden
        \_ s/rm/kill/
           \_ s/rm -rf/kill -9/ (terminate with extereme prejudice)
              \_ perhaps you meant "killall"
        \_ Now this would look good on the csua tee-shirt
        \_ -r?  What is he, an executable directory?
        \_ rm -f /bin/laden is just fine
2001/9/12 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:22407 Activity:high
9/12    Is it that hard to learn flying 757s and 767s given that the planes
        pretty much fly themselves?  You can learn from the M$ Flight
        Simulator, right?
        \_ These bastards didn't need to know how to fly the planes. They
           just needed to know how the steer them into a building. It doesn't
           take much training to do that. M$ Flight Sim is probably enough.
           \_ But they need to find their way to NYC and Washington before
              they can see the targets visually.  But then M$ Flight Sim
              probably teaches that too.
              they can see the targets visually.
        \_ They sure did aim nicely, though.  Right into the center of each
           of the towers.  Those things steer like drunken cows.  -geordan
           \_ Actually, I think the 2nd plane hit the corner of the tower.
           Does it really matter? -eric
           \_ You punch in the coordinates and the computer does the rest.
              Its not that hard.
              \_ The autopilot has coordinates for each of the World Trade
                 Center towers and can target them that accurately?  The
                 things technology can accomplish these days. -geordan
                 \_ 1. it's easy to memorize numbers for a single coordinate
                    2. you just have to get close enough to see the damn thing
                       then they can crash into it easily.
        \_ how good were the pilots?
http://slate.msn.com/code/explainer/explainer.asp?Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8270
2001/9/12 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:22408 Activity:moderate
9/12    Sendmail Q:  I'm getting a log entry claiming relay=somewrongserver
        when I try to send to the outside world.  Where does sendmail get
        this info from? [perhaps the same question: $m in sendmail.cf = ?]
        \_ with this going on, you're still doing normal work?  Shame on you.;)
2001/9/12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:22409 Activity:nil
9/12    How about a csua t-shirt that says,
        "Now is not the time for justice, now is the time for WAR!"
        i bet it would sell well right now.
        \_ Hi paolo!
2001/9/12 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:22410 Activity:high
9/12    How come nobody suspected North Korea for this attack?
        \_ Commies are not faceless cowards.
           \_ Didn't that Kim-something female agent from NK put a bomb in an
           \_ Didn't that Kim-something female agent from NK put a bomb in a US
              airline years ago?
                \_ Where is she now?  She was quite a HO7 AZN CH1C.
              \_ http://www.koreascope.org/english/sub/2/nk10_5.htm
           \_ Didn't that Kim-something female agent from NK put a bomb in a US
              plane years ago?
        \_ What does NK have to gain from doing this? They want American
           food and supplies to help their famine at home.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22411 Activity:insanely high
9/12    So why do the western powers antagonize the Arabs the way they do?
        a) why does Israel insist on creating "settlements" in Arab areas?
           \_ Because God told them to.
        b) why does Israel insist that Jerusalem must belong only to them?
           \_ As opposed to say the PLO who will not let jews or christians
              or any non-muslim into Jerusalem? Yeah let's just hand it over
              to a bunch of inhuman thugs.
              \_ This comment is idiotic. Non-Muslims go to Jerusalem all
                 the time.
                 \_ Because it is (or was) in Jewish hands. If turned over
                    to the PLO, all access to Jerusalem will be restricted
                    to muslims.
        c) why has Israel used live fire on rock-throwing Palestinian youths,
           treated them like second hand citizens, subjected children to random
           violent interrogations and searches and seizures?
           \_ why does the media only show the rock throwing, and not
              the molotovs and shots against the Israeli troups?
           \_ Because the PLO employs children and youths as delivery
              mechanisms for its bombs etc.
              Oh yeah, let's not forget that the PLO also uses live fire,
              its just that you don't see it on CNN.
              \_ you do see it on CNN. but obviously these children are only
                 going to hate the more when all of them are treated with the
                 assumption of guilt. anyway Palestine is just one issue and
                 I think not the most important one to the rest of the Arabs;
                 palestinian terrorists seem mostly to target israel.
           \_ Perhaps you should read this:
            http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-horowitz091001.shtml
              The PLO isn't kids who are feeling bad.
        c) why has/does the United States prop up corrupt regimes in
           South America, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. etc... just to secure oil
           and stop the "communist plot to take over the world"? CIA-assisted
           coups all over the place supporting the same dictators we publicly
           denounce.
        Terrorists aren't crazy. They're incredibly desperate. If you think
        about it, terrorism is the only deterrance to the western powers in
        their conduct. If you were living under extreme oppression and the US
        was the ultimate power behind your oppressors you'd cheer too when a
        blow was made that actually meant something to them. There are so many
        more issues here than people understand it's sickening. Of course the
        tragedy is sickening too. But it's not like these muslims just randomly
        hate the us for no reason, and blow themselves up for jollies.
        \_ What oppression? Most of those Arab countries are prospering
           with oil exports. I would make the exception with Iraq, who
           invaded another country, Iran, who kidnapped US embassy workers
           and has since sponsored terrorism, and the Palestinians who
           may have some cause for rebellion but not to the point of
           crashing planes into buildings.
        \_ I'd want to the police to shoot live rounds at rock throwers, too.
           There's this silly misconception among people that they don't
           deserve to be shot at if they throw fist-sized rocks at soldiers.
           \_ at children? maybe that's because you're a sick fuck.
              \_ a "child" with a handgrenade is still an enemy that needs
                 to be taken out.
                 \_ Too bad most motd bleeding hearts don't understand this.
              \_ nah, it's usually kids intermingled with young adults
                 oh yeah, and calm down silly
                 \_ tell that to those advocating turning the middle east into
                    pavement and pointing to islam as the driving force here.
                    tell that to all the western leaders who spout predictable
                    crap about "terrorism will not stand" without any blip about
                    why we suffer terrorism. even the media has every fact you
                    might want to know...except in the faq there's no entry for
                    "why".
                    \_ nah, you can tell them that.  I'm just making a single
                       point about rock throwing
        \_ The PLO can lock up individuals in Palesitian radical factions
           they suspect of planning suicide bombings.
        \_ The PLO can arrest Palesitian radical factions they suspect
           as participating in suicide bombings.
           The Israelis could stop building settlements.
           Now, tell me why neither has occurred?
           Now, tell me why niether has occurred?
           \_ Participating in suicide bombings? Aren't they already dead?
           \_ Because the palestinians want more land, and Israel wants
              all of their land back. You know, the land they had for
              a long time, promised to them by God?
              \_ You fucking idiot.
              \_ Man, your ignorance is truly frightening.
                 \_ Your unfounded namecalling is truely frightening.
                    Are you incapable of logical refutation, then?
                    Display your "enlightenment" in the face of "ignorance"
                    \_ Why?  Unfounded namecalling takes much less effort.
2001/9/12 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:22412 Activity:high
9/12    What's the point of banning plastic knives on airplanes?  All a
        terrorist need is a pen to kill someone on the plane.  Or even a
        waistbelt.  Or he can even use bare hands if he knows some form of
        martial arts.
        \_ you've been reading too much shibumi
        \_ there will be plenty of other "security measures" that will
           make much less sense than banning plastic knives on planes.
           get ready to spread butter on your rolls in a slightly
           different manner.
        \_ We should ban oxygen on planes so that potential terrorists can't
        \_ We should ban oxygen on airplanes so potential terrorists can't
           breathe.
2001/9/12 [Transportation/Airplane, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:22413 Activity:high
9/12    Evidently there is no circumstances in which the first thought of
        a politician isn't isn't "Shit what lies can i make up to keep me
        from looking bad" ...
http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010912/ts/attack_whitehouse_targets_dc_2.html
        I assumed i was way too old and jaded to ever say this again, but,
        i'm so disgusted.
        \_ How can Air Force One be the target?  It's a moving object and it's
           a big sky up there for a commercial airliner of similar speed to
           ram into it.  And doesn't a 757 fly slower than a 747?
           \_ AF1 was a target while it was sitting on the tarmac. The White
              House and/or Camp David might have been a target.
              \_ But Bush won't be in the plane when it's stiting on the
                 tarmac.
                 \_ There is a window of vulnerability of about 3 to 5
                    mins after the plane lands he is wisked away in the
                    limo.
           \_ You punch in the coordinates and the computer does the rest.
              Its not that hard.
              \_ A 757 can be programmed to seek a moving target with changing
                 coordinates?
              \_ You keep repeating this without understanding my point. The
                 WTC has known gps coordinates. If you give the autopilot
                 coordinates it will steer the aircraft toward the coordinates.
                 All the bastards had to do was to disengage the autopilot
                 a few seconds befor the collision. It takes some training
                 but its not that hard.
            \_ AF1 WAS NOT A TARGET. that's the point. it's all B.S. made up
               because Bush was getting criticized for not getting back to D.C.
               fast enough to avoid criticism. -top
               \_ The article states that af1 and the white house were targets.
                  Maybe AF1 wasn't a target, but I can believe that the white
                  house was. Its not made up bs. There are legitimate security
                  concerns where Secret Service can overrule what the pres.
                  wants to do.
           ram into it.  And doesn't a 747 fly faster than a 757?
2001/9/12-13 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:22414 Activity:moderate
9/12    Is there a way to force the mails in /var/mqueue to attempt
        a resend?
        \- "alias pushmail /usr/lib/sendmail -v -qR!:1" ok tnx. --psb
        \_ sendmail -q
2001/9/12 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan, Reference/Religion] UID:22415 Activity:nil
9/12    This is depressing:
        http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_muslims.shtml
        Regardless of what muslims in the near east did, muslims
        here should not be treated like the japanese americans
        were during WWII. The enemy may move among them, but they
        are not the enemy.
        \_ It's getting more and more like "The Siege".
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:22416 Activity:high
9/12    What I want to know is the percentages behind the Jewish #'s in
        the American media and the Muslim percentages in the American
        media. Also same with politicians who shape our international
        affairs. is it any wonder why we antagonize the arabs then?
        \_ Journalists' guide to covering Arab Americans:
           http://www.freep.com/jobspage/arabs
        \_ I think the average joe isn't even sure whether he should hate Arabs
           or Muslims (not to mention he shouldn't hate them collectively in
           the first place.)  I'm still confused whether or not most Arabs are
           Muslims, whether the Islamic world is against US or the Arab world
           is against US or both or neither, and so on.
           is against US or both, and so on.  All I know is
           is against US or both, and so on.  Should I interpret the TV footage
           as "The Arabs cheering on / condemning the attack" or "The muslims
           cheering on / condemning the attack".  All I think I know is
           "ethnic Isralis" are *more or less* the same as "jewish".
           cheering on / condemning the attack".  Is the Middle East conflict
           about Arabs or Muslims?  All I think I know is that "ethnic Isralis"
           are *more or less* the same as "jewish".
           \_ There are Christian Arabs, and non-Arab Muslims. Most Arabs are
              Muslims.
              I think the real problem is that most people have no clue WHY
              these people hate the US, or why some might cheer such an action.
              \_ Is it Arabs or is it Muslims whose women cover up their faces
                 in public?
                 \_ Muslims, but it's not required by the religion and I don't
                    know if it's limited to Muslims.
              \_ Its the green eyed monster of envy. They hate us because we
                 are believe in freedom, equality, liberty and our beliefs
                 have made us prosperous in ways that they can never hope to
                 achive (mainly because of thier screwed up religious system).
                 Go ahead tell me I'm wrong and childish etc. Its you who are
                 wrong, if you believe that somehow this shit is our fault for
                 doing x to country/people a or support country/people y.
                 \_ you're not childish, but you are wrong.
                    It's because of women flaunting themselves about
                    in public and in films, rampant homosexuality, and
                    general degeneracy in the USA.
                    \_ Our way of life, esp. liberty, freedom and equality
                       require us to tolerate behaviors that we do not agree
                       with. They hate the ideas of liberty, freedom and
                       equality (esp. for women).
                    \_ Exactly my point. They hate our way of life, esp.
                       the freedom for people to live and do as they chose
                       so long as it is consistent with civil order.
2001/9/12 [ERROR, uid:36270, category id '18005#9.31' has no name! , , Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:36270 Activity:nil
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
those,"

Stand proud, America!
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:36271 Activity:nil
9/12    So did someone purge the moron who couldn't tell the difference
        between muslim's and Hindu's or did it just roll off the end?
        \_ What difference?
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:36272 Activity:nil 66%like:23093 66%like:24083
9/12    [ restored ]
        \_ thanks!
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized/Multicategory] UID:36273 Activity:nil
9/12    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21626.html - go fbi go!
        \_ Damn.  The CIA is so lame now that the FBI needs to take over its
           jobs?
           \_ Hmm.  I'm not sure that this is what that article implies.  The
              FBI is supposed to be handling domestic crime -- including
              terrorism, espionage, etc.  The CIA wasn't mentioned in the
              article at all.
              \_ SIGINT is the responsibility of the CIA/NSA. Carnivore
                 is SIGINT.
                 \_ Yes, but this shouldn't preclude the FBI from having
                    some measure of autonomy.
                    some measure of autonomy.  The fact that the FBI wants to
                    do surveillance without being dependant on the NSA/CIA
                    should not be alarming.
                    \_ But the apparent fact that the CIA is not doing it
                       should be alarming.
                       \_ True, but this article doesn't address that driectly
                       \_ The FBI is doing the grunt work (install/setup)
                          on behalf of the agency. You have to understand
                          the way that spooks work. They never do anything
                          directly.
                       \_ True, but this article doesn't address that directly
                          or implicitly.  The focus of the article seemed to
                          more about infringement of personal privacy...
                          be more about infringement of personal privacy...
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:36274 Activity:nil
9/12    Oliver Stone time. There is evidence that FDR was informed about
        a possible attack on Pearl Harbor and didn't do anything because
        he wanted the US to get involved in WWII. There is also evidence
        that the USS Greer was depth charging a german u boat under orders
        from Wilson and the Sec. Nav etc when it was attacked leading us
        into WWI. Is it possible that Bush knew and didn't do anything
        so that we could get involved in another war?
        Also consider the recovered "evidence" in Boston. That is such
        a setup, but by whom? The feds (fbi,cia), the administration,
        or the real terrorists trying to throw the investigators of
        the trail?
        \_ You are giving them too much credit.
        \_ The CIA did it to boost their budget.
           \_ Maybe so:
           http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/janes.underfunding/index.html
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:36275 Activity:nil
9/12    Poll:
        hijack, bomb, etc will continue:         ...
        this is the least horrific of the upcoming atrocities: .
        this is the last of the American terror:
        will be last if wipe out all terrorist completely -
        and destroy any new ones immediately:    ..
        will be last if have one world governnment, put a mark
        on every person in the world to identify and locate everyone 100% of
        the time and track them:                 .
        \_ You sound like a terrorist to me.  Unless you can prove
           otherwise, I'll have to wipe you out.
           \_tell that to the European Union, they'll do that one day
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:36276 Activity:nil
9/12    Poll:
        hijack, bomb, etc will continue:         ..
        this is the last of the American terror:
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:36277 Activity:nil
9/12    Why doesn't the US just remove support from Israel?
        Does the fact that roughly 10% of our politicans are
        Jewish and none are Muslim have anything to do with it?
        Why would removing support for Israel hurt america?
        \_ If the wolves are coming for us, I guess I should throw you
           to them first since they will probably be full after eating
           you and thus won't be interested in me. Great logic.
        \_ Becuase a majority of americans are christian, and thus share
           a large chunk of stuff with judaism. You cant be christian and
           not agree with judaism.
           This is not the case for islam.
           \_ hi dumbass. you're wrong. you should shut the fuck up,
              especially since this is such a sensitive issue. it's one thing to\
 keep talking your stupid talk when it's about Java or C++ but when you're
              talking about people's lives, just keep to your fucking incompetent self.
              especially since this is such a sensitive issue. it's
              one thing to keep talking your stupid talk when it's
              about Java or C++ but when you're talking about people's
              lives, just keep to your fucking incompetent self.
           \_ Allah and Yahve (sp?) are the same damn god, its unbelievable
              that people can't seem to understand this.
              \_ I heard that Jesus Christ also exists in Islam, but he's a
                 a prophet instead of a son of a god.  Is that true?
                 \_ Correct as stated. -alexf
                 \_ I heard something similar as well.
           \_ Islam : Christianity as Christianity : Judiasm
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36278 Activity:nil
9/12    I'm compiling a list of actions that we can take against the
        terrorists.  Please add to this list.
        1. bomb Afghanistan back into the stone age.  They don't have any
           natural resources that we need.  It's useful as a nuclear test
           site though.
           \_ Afghanistan is already in the stone age. All we can do is
              to make it a big nuclear crater.
        2. finish the job with Iraq.  After killing saddam, we colonize the
           country and take over their oil fields.  Put the iraq soldiers to
           work in the oil fields.
        3. Deal with the palestinian problem once and for all.  Move them all
           to Iraq and work the oil fields.
        4. While we're at it, bomb Iran as well.  Take over their oil fields
           and put them to work in the oil fields.
        5. Send in our very best Christian conversion people.  Pat Robertson,
           Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, etc.  It's time for them to abandon
           Allah and come to Christ!
        6. Deport all non-citizen Muslims and Hindus from the US.  To comply
           with the US constitution, we can't touch them if they're citizens.
           But by god, let's get rid of all the Hindus on H-1 visas.  They
           all look and smell the same anyway.  The US is no place for people
           who worship animals like elephants, rats, or Allah.
           \_ Is this supposed to be humurous or are you seriously stupid?
        \_ hahaha
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:36279 Activity:nil
9/12    Why doesn't the US just remove support from Israel?
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:36280 Activity:nil
9/12    Exscuse me for my ignorance, but why don't we just stop doing
        whatever is making the terrorists mad? Why not pull out support for
        Israel and let them deal with the PLO? Why would not supporting
        Israel hurt the US? Does the fact that
        10% or so of our politicians are Jewish and none are muslim
        have anything to do with it?
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion] UID:36281 Activity:nil
9/12    Some of the muslims you see on TV cheering-- they may or may not
        have direct involvement, but they should be ashamed of themselves.
        They're like cockroaches. You can exterminate thousands of them,
        but there will still be millions left. So whether they're directly
        involved or not, they should be exterminated indiscriminantly.
        \_ that's just how the Muslims were taught to hate US.  --PeterM
        \_ Wouldn't you say tha this exactly how Iraqi and Libyan
           civilians feel about the U.S.?
           \_ Why are we even trying to reason with this racist idiot in the
              first place?? How did he even get a soda account?
2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:36282 Activity:nil
9/12    Something to think about:
        http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb-050es.html
        Not that this changes the fact that we should nuke everything
        from palestine to pakistan and be done with the muslim menace
        \_ That's right, if i remember my Bible correctly, didn't
           Christ himself give the thumbs up to eye-for-an-eye argument?
           \_ You're not remembering it correctly. Try reading it again.
              He advocated "turning the other cheek."
              \_ irony
           Killing all brown people in the world is the best and only
           solution. And don't forget to nuke Indonesia and Turkey while
           solution. And don't forget to nuke Malaysia and Turkey while
           you're at it.
           \_ Idiots like gandhi who believed that "an eye for an eye
              makes the whole world blind" are the reason we are in
              this situation.  The fruits of years of diplomacy and
              concilliation and consideration were reaped yesterday.
              Now is the time for action not moderation and compassion.
              \_ HAHAHAHHHHH!!!    When have we EVER had a single DAY
                 of concilliation or consideration in our foreign policy?
                 Read up on Chile, El Salvador, Iraq, et al.  It's sentiment
                 like this that keeps Kissinger out of the Hague.
                 \_ Our policy of toleration of egypt, syria, jordan,
                    iraq, iran, the sudan, wimpiness in korean and
                    vietnam, detente are all the result of "diplomats".
                    If we had trusted our military leaders, we would
                    not be in this situation now.
                    \_ You're right.  We'd be neck deep in blood and no
                       better off.
2001/9/12 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:36283 Activity:nil
9/12    Microsoft releases Flight Simulator Value Pack for Flight Simulator
        2002.  New flight destinations include "World Trade Center (WTC)" and
        "The Pentagon (PTG)".
        "As the leader in this rapidly evolving industry, we need to constantly
        stay ahead of our competitors." said Bill Gates, Chairman of Microsoft
        Corp.  "One of our strategies is to realize every opportunity out there
        and make the most profit out of it, despite possible criticisms from
        certain consumer groups."  Sales are expected to reach thousands in
        the first two days.
        \_ The new destinations were developed based on research conducted at
           the University of Kabul by Prof. Laden et. al.
2001/9/12 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:36284 Activity:nil
9/12    What movie is that with Denzel Washington where there was terrorism
        in America so they had to put Arab Americans in "concentration camps"?
        \_ The Siege. This is so similar its eerie.
           \_ I doubt there will be concentration camps.  However, anti
              Arab American sentiment will be there.
              \_ I agree. Even Hilter style concentration camps are too
                 decent for these people.
                 \_ uh... WTF is that supposed to mean?
              \_ Hilter style concentration camps are too decent for these people.
                 \_ maybe they should put YOU in a "hilter style" camp.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36285 Activity:nil
9/9/12  [ dumb quote from dumb person deleted. it's just bad timing ]

9/9/12
"Today, our nation saw evil, the very worst of human nature. ... America was tar\
geted for attack because we are the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity\
 in the world. No one will keep that light from shining," Bush smirks.
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:36286 Activity:nil
9/13    let me get this right.  today we learned:
        1. don't go to work early.
        2. americans can't stand up to knife attacks.
        maybe they are right.  maybe we are too weak.
        \_ dude shut the f*ck up. I want a glowing Afghanistan today!
2001/9/12 [Uncategorized] UID:36287 Activity:nil
9/12    Al Queda meeting tomorrow in front of sproul. Protest the condemnation
        of our leader!
        \_ Watch out for bombs.
2001/9/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:36288 Activity:nil
9/11    I found this educational:
        http://msnbc.com/news/627355.asp?cp1=1
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:September:12 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>