Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:June:17 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>
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2001/6/17 [Uncategorized] UID:21547 Activity:nil 54%like:21304 60%like:21739
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2001/6/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21548 Activity:insanely high
6/17/2001  If you're concerned about competing for jobs with H1B visa
           recipients, consider writing your Congresspeople and president.
           The economy sucks right now and companies are hiring H1B people
           instead of recent grads or recent layoff-ees.
           You can find addresses for some senators/congressmen/president in
           ~peterm/Addresses.  Get your friends to write, too.  --PeterM
           \_ I didn't have you pegged as a xenophobe, peterm.  -tom
             \_ I deny being xenophobic.  The rationalization for H1Bs
                was always that companies couldn't fill positions.
                I know plenty of people who can't find jobs now.
                The time for H1B's has ended, for now.  I'm happy to
                have them all back when the economy improves.  Also,
                I have no objection to IMMIGRATION.  But this half-assed
                H1B serfdom is perverting the market.--PeterM
           \_ It's pretty easy to work at a University job and say being
              against H1B Visa's is an example of xenophobia.  Try
              competing in the open market where you are up against H1B
              people who claim to be able to do your job for 1/3 the pay
              and see how pro H1B you end up being.  The result is that
              the market gets flooded, wages go down, and you've turned
              California into the traffic congested, out of energy mess
              it is today.  -ax
              \_ It's easy to sit around in a job with artifically high
                 wages created by an artificially constrained supply of
                 workers and then complain when the party's over.  -tom
              \_ let me get this straight.  are you seriously blaming
                 immigrants for the energy crisis in california?
           \_ If a company is dumb enough to hire someone less qualified
              (and believe me, there are a lot) then they should have the
              right to. But I don't think being an H1Ber has any bearing
              on your qualifications (or your lack thereof) or your likely-
              hood of being hired. Actually, you're probably less likely
              because managers would rather not go through the hassle of
              dealing with an H1B applicant. As for my experience, I had
              to work with 2 NCGs, one of which had an H1B. I found the
                              \_ ??
                                \_ new college graduate. -tom
              American citizen utterly incompetent but the guy on H1B to
              be qualified.
          \_ from a companies point of view, H1B's can be good -- they tend
             to get locked to a company 3-6 years at a time.
             Also, do you have more objective proof of some of the annecdotes
             you offer?
             \_ Of course it is good for companies. Wouldn't you want
                an employee you could underpay, overwork, and have thrown
                out of the country for any reason whatsover?
        \_ PeterM, immigrants are essential to the U.S. economy. Without
           the cheap Indian and Chinese workers the hi-tech industry wouldn't
           have boomed the way before. Also without the cheap Mexican and
           negros you'd have to pay $10 per nugget. Immigrants are good.
           \_ You are right.  We needed the foreign labor then.  Now,
              we don't, and citizens have to compete with non-citizens
              who cannot compete fairly in the job market because they
              are hindered by red tape.  IF WE WANT FOREIGN WORKERS
              MAKE THEM CITIZENS INSTEAD OF H1Bs.  No more H1Bs.  Either
              FULL citizenship or GET THEM OUT.  --PeterM
              \_ what about green cards?
                \_ Those with green cards don't have to have an employer to stay
                   in the country, right?  Their bargaining position is
                   equal to a citizen's, then, and they won't pervert the
                   labor market, as much, or at all.  --PeterM

 /___\ /___\   |_|
| |_| | |_| ||_  |
| | | | | | | _| |
 \ _ / \ _ /___  |
  ___   ___ _____
  ____         _          _____                  _
 / ___| ___   | |_ ___   |_   _|____  ____ _ ___| |
| |  _ / _ \  | __/ _ \    | |/ _ \ \/ / _` / __| |
| |_| | (_) | | || (_) |   | |  __/>  < (_| \__ \_|
 \____|\___/   \__\___/    |_|\___/_/\_\__,_|___(_)
2001/6/17 [Uncategorized] UID:21549 Activity:nil 55%like:21546 86%like:21552
6/17       [REPOST] Anyone know of a good introduction to the Gell-Mann
           8 Fold Way that can be understood by a engineering grad (7
           series plus one ud phyics class and one ud math class)?
2001/6/17-18 [Computer/Domains, Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:21550 Activity:high
6/17    "By linking a grading system with computers that process subsidized
        lunches, for example, educators could tell whether poorer students
        perform better with certain teachers."
        http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Smart-Data.html
        \_ huh!  computers can do that??
           \_ Oh, yeah. They even have computers on the Internet now.
              \_ I heard that the Internet Superhighway had gotten jammed up
                 from too many computers on it, but I never see any computers
                 on the highway.
              \_ Internet, eh?
                 Maude, eh?
                 \_ I'm from Canada and they say I'm slow, eh.
                 \_ Who was that Maud person, anyway?
                    \_ NetHack fans unite!  Who plays here?
2001/6/17-18 [Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:21551 Activity:kinda low
6/17    Any BGP gurus who can help me with a problem?  I'm trying to set up
        a unix box speaking BGP4 with a router (A) on one side, and OSPF with
        a router (B) hanging off another interface.  If both routers A & B
        have different /24 segments of the same B-class hanging off other
        interfaces, I am able to distribute the whole aggregated B-class
        (/16 network) from A to the unix box, and from there to router B,
        and I can see router B's /24s on the unix box, but cannot re-
        distribute those particular /24s to router A via BGP.  This is a
        Solaris box running gated, which is able to handle & redistribute all
        other BGP or OSPF-learned routes I throw at it.  Is BGP not able
        to redistribute a subnet in direction -> if it's learned the
        aggregated range this subnet is part of from <- ?  I'm a bit lost,
        since I can't find any docs on this particular behavior.  -John
        \_ I'm not too familiar with BGP, but you should probably ask
           this question on the nanog mailing list. ----ranga
           this question on the nanog mailing list rather than on the
           motd. ----ranga
2001/6/17-19 [Computer/Theory] UID:21552 Activity:high 86%like:21549
6/17    [REPOST] Anyone know of a good introduction to the Gell-Mann
        8 Fold Way that can be understood by a engineering grad (7
        series plus one ud phyics class and one ud math class)?
        \_ forget it.
        \_ forget it. There's so much physics out there that is accesible
           to someone with the background you describe, that will actually
           teach you something useful about how the world works, and can
           be applied to useful things like how devices work.  why fuck
           around with useless stuff you need grad level math and physics to
           understand?
           \_ Because it is interesting.
              \_ No.  AI is interesting.
                 \_ I've worked on AIs before (GA,NN,ES,FL) and IMHO
                    physics is much more interesting because it is
                    understandable via mathematics. AI is just a bunch
                    of weeny structured programmers whinning about
                    lisp, scheme, semantics, cognition, determinism,
                    etc without ever producing anything useful because
                    the concepts of intelligence and self-awareness
                    are too hard to reduce into programmable abstractions.
                    About the only promising avenue of research in AI
                    is machine learning, but once you get right down to
                    it, the most fancy machine we have today is about
                    as smart as a fungus or possibly a protozoan.
                    \_ You are a stupid, stupid troll, friend.  You need to
                       read a real AI textbook.  What you are whining about is
                       not AI, it's cognitive science.
        \_ Pick up any intro abstract algebra or group theory text, read
           up on basic group theory, read the stuff on SP/SU groups, and
           then we talk.

From http://www.pickupguide.com

-*Warning*, DO NOT try and develop a relationship with a girl *before* you
sleep with her. Because, then your head gets all messed up, when they decide
they like that relationship they already got, and don't want to risk ruining
it by having sex.

\_ Why would you develop a relationship with her after you've slept with
   her? Maybe it should be: "DO NOT try to develop a relationship with
   a girl. Sleep with her as often as she'll allow until she stops putting
   out." Seems like better advice that way.
   \_ The age that I am, he's the reason I'm still single!  These are
      the guys who are out in the world.
      \_ You are still single because you are a loser who blames sexually
         satisfied people for your problems. Women can smell a loser a
         mile away.
         \_ Is that why they avoid me?
            \_ Yes.
2001/6/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21553 Activity:insanely high
6/17    If you're concerned about competing for jobs with H1B visa
        recipients, consider writing your Congresspeople and president.
        The economy sucks right now and companies are hiring H1B people
        instead of recent grads or recent layoff-ees.
                \_ Actually, most high-tech companies just plain aren't
                   hiring anyone right now.  Plenty of openings in fast-food
                   & retail though, and they can't hire H1-B's.
        You can find addresses for some senators/congressmen/president in
        ~peterm/Addresses.  Get your friends to write, too.  --PeterM
        \_ I didn't have you pegged as a xenophobe, peterm.  -tom
          \_ I deny being xenophobic.  The rationalization for H1Bs
             was always that companies couldn't fill positions.
             I know plenty of people who can't find jobs now.
             The time for H1B's has ended, for now.  I'm happy to
             have them all back when the economy improves.  Also,
             I have no objection to IMMIGRATION.  But this half-assed
             H1B serfdom is perverting the market.--PeterM
             \_ This is a logical fallacy: "X is a better solution,
                so we should oppose Y."  I don't see you writing letters to
                congresspeople telling them to relax immigration laws, and
                it's highly unlikely in the current political climate that
                immigration laws will change at all.  So getting rid of
                H1B's is equivalent to "getting rid of those damn furriners
                who are taking 'our' jobs", as if we have more of a right
                to those jobs because of where we were born.  Do you buy
                anything electronic?  Ride a Taiwanese bike?  "American"
                jobs have been farmed out to furriners who will work for
                less for many years.  Now that it's happening (on a very
                small scale) to rich white guys, it's suddenly a problem.
                Boo fuckin' hoo.  -tom
                \_ Wow, I agree with tom, for once.  Open borders, all the way.
                \_ I drive a japanese car.  Open borders all the way.
                \_ Yes let's just distribute everything equally to everyone in
                   the world! Why should I have more than the overcrowded
                   destitute multitudes! We should all live like that! Think
                   how efficient it will be having dense cities of hard workers
                   with mass transit and solar panels and windmills on all the
                   roofs! Ah, it brings a tear to my eye. Viva la revalucion!
                   \_ who said anything about distribution?  we're talking
                      about letting your vaunted free market decide who
                      gets the money.  Oh I forgot, you only like the free
                      market when it benefits rich white males.  -tom
                      \_ "why are you bashing white males like everyone else,
                          tom?  it it because it's the right thing to do?"
                          "no, but it's quicker...easier...more seductive
                   if that's the question.  -tom
                          than coming up with a real answer"
                          \_ uh, a real answer to what?  -tom
        \_ It's pretty easy to work at a University job and say being
           against H1B Visa's is an example of xenophobia.  Try
           competing in the open market where you are up against H1B
           people who claim to be able to do your job for 1/3 the pay
                 \_ Immigration is very necessary to a strong economy. For
           and see how pro H1B you end up being.  The result is that
           the market gets flooded, wages go down, and you've turned
           California into the traffic congested, out of energy mess
           it is today.  -ax
           \_ It's trivial to compete if you are smart.  Are you smart, ax?
           \_ It's easy to sit around in a job with artifically high
              wages created by an artificially constrained supply of
              workers and then complain when the party's over.  -tom
              \_ Are you prepared to give up your Cal job to an H1B
                 Visa holder who will do it for less money than you and put
                 your money where your mouth is?  -ax
                \_ I don't feel I have anything to fear from H1B visa holders,
                   which is the relevant question.  -tom
           \_ let me get this straight.  are you seriously blaming
              immigrants for the energy crisis in california?
              \_ 25% of the people in California are not citizens.
                 We're about 25% short on power.  See an easy solution
                 to this math problem?  The population of the US
                 only grows because of immigration. -ax
                 \_ Immigration is very necessary for a strong economy. For
                    example, the Japanese have priced themselves out of
                    many job markets, but they refuse to allow Koreans
                    and others willing to work those jobs into Japan. The
                    end result is that the Japanese economy is stagnant
                    even though the net worth of an average Japanese is
                    $450,000. --dim
                        \_ and the US, specifically, is forecast to have
                           growing need for immigrant labor for precisely
                           this reason.  Guess ax will just stop eating
                           grapes.  -tom
                 \_ I'm sure a lot of those non-citizens are illegal immigrants
                    from places like Mexico.  How much electricity do you think
                    they use?  Electricity use is not evenly distributed among
                    the populace.  Let's not forget that a lot of the power
                    consumption is from businesses (server farms, etc.).
        \_ If a company is dumb enough to hire someone less qualified
           (and believe me, there are a lot) then they should have the
           right to. But I don't think being an H1Ber has any bearing
           on your qualifications (or your lack thereof) or your likely-
           hood of being hired. Actually, you're probably less likely
           because managers would rather not go through the hassle of
           dealing with an H1B applicant. As for my experience, I had
           to work with 2 NCGs, one of which had an H1B. I found the
                          \_ ??
                             \_ new college graduate. -tom
           American citizen utterly incompetent but the guy on H1B to
           be qualified.
        \_ from a companies point of view, H1B's can be good -- they tend
           to get locked to a company 3-6 years at a time.
           Also, do you have more objective proof of some of the annecdotes
           you offer?
           \_ Of course it is good for companies. Wouldn't you want
              an employee you could underpay, overwork, and have thrown
           \_ Shut up, Paolo.
              out of the country for any reason whatsover?
        \_ PeterM, immigrants are essential to the U.S. economy. Without
           the cheap Indian and Chinese workers the hi-tech industry wouldn't
           have boomed the way before. Also without the cheap Mexican and
           negros you'd have to pay $10 per nugget. Immigrants are good.
        \_ If that argument were true, the economy would be booming beyond
           belief now since we have more cheap labor than ever.  -ax
           \_ You are right.  We needed the foreign labor then.  Now,
              we don't, and citizens have to compete with non-citizens
              who cannot compete fairly in the job market because they
              are hindered by red tape.  IF WE WANT FOREIGN WORKERS
              MAKE THEM CITIZENS INSTEAD OF H1Bs.  No more H1Bs.  Either
              FULL citizenship or GET THEM OUT.  --PeterM
              \_ what about green cards?
                \_ Those with green cards don't have to have an employer to
                   stay in the country, right?  Their bargaining position is
                   equal to a citizen's, then, and they won't pervert the
                   labor market, as much, or at all.  --PeterM
                   \_ along similar lines, why not support labor laws
                      requiring businesses to pay H1Bs fair market wages?
                      just curious --erikred
              \_ I wouldn't make a statement as strong as "FULL
                 citizenship or GET THEM OUT", but I would say that
                 if there are temporary work visas for foreigners, the
                 foreign workers should have the same privledges as
                 citizens/permanant residents.  This would be more
                 fair to both citizens and to the foreign workers.  In the
                 current law, the people who benefit are big corporations --
                 they can hire H1B applicants for less money and it is a
                 pain in the ass for H1B applicants to switch to a new
                 employeer.  Both the citizens/prem. residents and H1B
                 holders get screwed in this deal.
        \_ I say throw the illegal immigrants in vats of boiling oil
           and tape it, then show the tape on HBO. This will send
           a message to the rest of the world that we are bad-ass
           mutha-fuckahs.
        \_ They just upped the number of visas. By the time you get
           congress to change the laws back, we'll start needing them
           foreign workers again. Congress must think we are nuts out here
           in California -- we WANT H1B's, we DO NOT WANT H1B's. we WANT,
           we DO NOT WANT...Make up your friggin mind. In good or bad economy
           the labor arguments: "H1B serfdom is perverting the market"
           (peter M) still apply, so why now? friggin idiots you should have
           thought about this before you let them up it in the first place.
           \_ Hey, I have always been against HB1B visas and have even
              gotten friends of mine to write stories in the Examiner
              and Chronicle outlining the dangers (this was years ago,
              btw, way before the bubble popped). It is easy to mouth off
              on the motd, but a bit harder to actually go out and do
              something about it. Now that the cat it out of the bag,
              so to speak, I think we have an obligation to give full
              citizenship to the HB1B visa holders (and the inevitable
              25 relatives they will want to bring over). But I still
              think we should cut off the indentured servitude program. -ausman
        \_ Give me concrete proof that companies are hiring more H1B visa
           holders right now -- my experience is that most companies are
           passing over candidates with H1Bs and favoring either green
           card holders or citizens in this current market.  Most of the hiring
           managers I run into don't want to wait for any sort of visa
           processing and feel they can find someone immediately available
           under the current job market conditions. --chris
           \- you know this is pretty interesting to read. i think it is a
           good example of moral reasoning not coming from intuition. --psb
                \- i fwd this to my liberal indian activist friends. they
                will soon be picketing sloda now they are done with that
                pederast reddy. well at least you guys will be able to check
                out some hot indian women. tom might even get some for leading
                the good fight. ok tnx. --psb
                  \_ I've "got some," tnx.  -tom
                \_ Your liberal indian friends need to be shipped back to
                   India, where the victory of socialism has already been
                   achieved.  They will have nothing to picket there, they
                   ll just slowly starve to death.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:June:17 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>