Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:May:26 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2001/5/26-28 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:21366 Activity:insanely high
5/25    If IPv6 encrypts everything (IPSec) as part of the standard, does this
        mean protocols like ssh would no longer be required?  Will IPv6 allow
        telnet and ftp and other cleartext password protocols to live on?
        What use would there be for ssh if IPv6 was everywhere?
             \- i realize i am "begging the hypothetical" but the "if ipv6
             was everywhere [and interoperating nicely, with reasonable key
             management, and transparancy]" is a pretty big if. "if ksh does
             everything sh does and more, why do we still have sh?" etc. --psb
                \_ It's a good question.  I think the answer is mostly just
                   inertia and history.
        \_ there will always be a need for application-level security
           \_ What does ssh do for me that ipsec doesn't?  IPv6 encrypts, it
              compresses, QoS, and lots of other funs things.  What does ssh
              get me in a pure IPv6 world? (Yes, I know this will take a while
              to happen, that's not my query).  Don't get me wrong.  I love
              ssh and use it for all sorts of stuff.  I'm just not seeing a
              big role for it in IPv6.
              \_ Authentication?
                 \_ I think a telnet prompt with memorised password is better
                    auth than the keys-on-disk ssh standard auth.  I can steal
                    your private key.  I can't read your mind.
                \_ you can require a key on disk, and protect the
                   key with a passphrase
                    \_ Is stealing someone's private key easier than reading
                       their password out of the password file?
                        \_ Yes.  And can be more useful.
                    \_ Of course -my- private key is encrypted. Go ahead and
                       steal it. As for memorized password, it can be easily
                       stolen as well with a use of a trojaned client or
                       server, and I have seen this happen many times.
                        \_ So you unencrypt your key before each use?  Uh huh.
                           If the server or client is trojaned all is lost
                           anyway so it hardly matters what you use at that
                           point, does it?
                           \_ This is not true in general.  It's easy to
                              authenticate yourself without revealing
                              your private key.
                           \_ Yes, man ssh-agent. And if your are not using
                              ssh-agent, then yes, you need to decrypt the
                              key every time you use it. Ssh client does this
                              for you. And yes, this is more secure because
                              you don't have to send neither your password
                              nor your private key to the remote ssh server.
                                \_ I think you don't understand how ssh-agent
                                   or ssh itself works.  ssh-agent is a local
                                   key manager that makes it so you don't have
                                   to retype your passphrase over and over for
                                   each new connection.  Nothing more.  I'd
                                   like to hear your explanation of how it
                                   auths to the server without sending any
                                   \_ do you even know what PKI means?
                                      \_ Same question: how are you doing auth
                                         without sending someone something?
              \_ i was speaking more broadly, e.g. SSL too.  the main use
                 of app-level security is authentication and integrity
                 of data between app-level (not system-level) principals.
                 \_ Is something like app-level ssl necessary when the
                    underlying protocol (IPv6 in this case) deal with it?
                    \_ yes, particularly for distributed systems. not
                       only are there app-level principals that are not
                       known at the system level to auth/authz, but
                       you also want to reduce the extent of damage when
                       one part fails.
        \_ Agent system, agent forwarding, x11 forwarding...
        \_ BTW, IPSec has nothing to do with IPv6.  Implementations of both
           for *BSD systems happen to be codevelped by the same people
           (, but IPv6 !=, is not a superset of, does not imply,
           whathaveyou, IPSec.
           \_ Well, true, but what I read implied that IPv6 is assumed to use
              IPSec by default.
2001/5/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:21367 Activity:insanely high
5/25    Russia introduced a flat tax of 13% last year.  Am I the only one who
        finds that ironic?  (Tax revenue was up 70% this year, btw).
        \_ Why is this ironic?  Econ 1A.
           \_ It's ironic because the former bastion of communism has learned
              the lessons of capitalism better than the United States has.
              \_ your argument will/would make more sense when and
                 if Russia becomes a place human beings actually
                 enjoy living in.  Do you read the newspaper?
                 Russia is a lawless hellhole.  The United States
                 is not (yet).
                 \_ Russia was never a place suitable for the enjoyment of
                    human beings.  It never will be.  What's that got to do
                    with it?  Are you trying to imply that the IRS is the
                    source of American prosperity?  Surely, you jest.
                    \_ what funds the government?  little fluffy
                       \_ You think the government is the source of American
                          prosperity?  Who cares what funds the government?
                          The government is not what makes this country great.
                          The government only holds us back from being even
                          greater.  Had some pork lately?  Pay your taxes like
                          a good little boy and run along.  Why do all you
                          lefties think the government is capable of improving
                          your life or anyone's life?
                          \_ GOVERNMENT IS AN EVIL COMMIE LIBERAL IDEA.
                             DOWN WITH AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!
                          \_ I haven't posted on this thread yet, but yes
                             I do think the government deserves a lot of
                             credit for our prosperity.  I came to this
                             country as an immigrint with nothing.  I was
                             able to attend excellent public schools from
                             grades 1-12 and then I received a scholarship
                             to the best public university in the world.
                             After graduating I was able to contribute
                             to a variety of companies some of which are
                             doing quite well.  Now I am in graduate school
                             supported by a fellowship.  A good deal of
                             our country's success in technology can be
                             traced to government programs like education
                             which take people like me who would otherwise
                             be flipping burgers due to lack of education
                             and turns them into scientists and engineers.
                             Although I would obviously prefer to pay less
                             taxes, I am happy to pay my taxes every year
                             because I'm grateful for the benefits I've
                             \_ PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE EVIL COMMIE LIBERAL
                                THINGS. BANNISH PUBLIC SCHOOLS! IMMIGRANTS
                                AND IMMIGRATION ARE EVIL COMMIE LIBERAL
                                THINGS. BAN BOTH OF THEM!
                             \_ Amen, brother.
                             \_ Glad you got a piece of what me and so many
                                others have had sucked from their wallets for
                                so many years.  How much of my money goes
                                straight to welfare for the extended families
                                of immigrants who came here to do nothing with
                                themselves as opposed to the rare few who did
                                something useful such as yourself?  How about
                                _this_ story?  _Their_ taxes helped put _you_
                                through school.  Be ashamed.  And oh yeah...
                                "Amen, brother", but for them, not you.
                              \_ The American government has the ability
                                to enforce contracts and thus promotes much
                                legitimate commerce. This is because it has
                                a very strong judiciary and a credible
                                encforcement capacity. The Russian government
                                hasn't quite figured any of this out yet
                                and so is incapable of creating an environment
                                where people improve their own lives.
                                \_ INTERNATION RELATIONS ARE EVIL COMMIE
                                   LIBERAL THINGS. FUCK INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
                 \_ you are free to move to a nice place without
                    a legitimate government (or taxes)... like Angola.
                    \_ Nice strawman.  Could you explain the correlation in
                       your mind between taking 50% of my income and freedom
                       as a citizen?  Thank you.
                       \_ Who's taking 50% of your income?
                   \_ sure!  what do you think supports all your freedoms
                      in america?  harsh language?  the good will of
                      the people? I really do think we enjoy more freedom
                      in america than in other countries with near
                      anarchy and no taxes.   if you're trying to
                      argue that the progressive tax is wrong, that's
                      another argument, i will have to go do some reading.
                        \_ The government doesn't create freedom.  The US
                           Constitution does by *limiting the powers of the
                           Federal Government*.  The government, by it's very
                           nature restricts freedom.  And yes, the progressive
                           tax is wrong.  There's no reason to take a greater
                           percentage *and* a greater absolute amount from one
                           citizen and give it to another.  I support sales and
                           usage taxes (such as bridge tolls) which is a system
                           where only those using the service pay the tax.  I
                           am strongly opposed to any form of income tax.  The
                           progressive income tax is only one step shy of a
                           total confiscatory "tax".  I *really* don't like
                           hearing elected reps in federal government saying
                           "no one needs more than $X amount a year".  That's
                           none of their god damned business.  As if they'd
                           have a clue what a citizen needs anyway.  Career
                           politicians know nothing about the people.
              \_ When will people learn? Communism == mobilizing a nation's
                 economy through command-control pervasively controlling
                 every aspect of life, including thought and media (like
                 1984). Communism != tax. Communism is evil (at least to
                 Americans) because it violates the very principles of the
                 Bill of Rights but it has nothing to do with taxes.
                 \_ It seems like you might be confusing the philosophy with
                    an implementation of that philosophy....
                 \_ Communism is evil because communism is a slave system where
                    the government effectively owns the people.  The tax rate
                    is meaningless when you're owned by the state.
              \_ Nah.  They just read some basic econ books.  BTW, Feinstein
                 voted in favor of the miniscule Bush tax cut.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:May:26 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>