Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:May:10 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2001/5/10 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:21219 Activity:nil
5/9     I am looking for windows 98 exploits.  Where's a good place
        to start?
2001/5/10 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:21220 Activity:very high
5/9     Congratulations on the fifty sixth anniversary of the great victory
        of the Soviet people over the german aggressors.
                \_ soviet who?
        \_ what battle was this? -ig'nant
           \_ This was the Great Patriotic War, also known as World War 2.
        \_ Little Troll, in order to attract attention you must stick with
           topics people think they know something about or have an opinion
           on.  Your implying that the Soviets did all the work in WWII to
           put down the Nazis, that the Allies weren't even there and further
           that the Soviets were some sort of innocent victims headed by that
           benevolent butcher Stalin is wasted on the ignorant masses on the
           motd.  Those of us who know what you're talking about know better.
           You can't rewrite history like this.  Maybe you could get someone
           upset for about 3 seconds if you denied the holocaust.  3 seconds.
             \_ I beg to differ.  Judging by the responses below, that was
                a hell of a troll.
                \_ There's a difference between getting hyped up about it which
                   was the intent of the troll and educating him.  I seriously
                   doubt he wanted lessons on WWII from half the motd authors.
           \_ Ah, but I am not rewriting history at all.  The point is,
              Russia does celebrate May 9th as V-day.  And it does so happen
              that it was Russia that broke Wehrmacht's back, and took Berlin
              (at a great loss of life too, 20 million was a state figure, it
              was more like 50 million).  Now, I certainly don't think Stalin
              was benevolent by any stretch of imagination, but the russians
              did win, bad leadership or no.  And I give credit where credit
              is due.  Now, what did Americans do during the war besides
              providing attrition for the U-boat torpedo bays with their endless
              supply of trading vessels?
                 \_ Uh, Americans took Normady, Sicily, North Africa and
                    the retook the philipines and most of south asia.
                    As I recall, American and Russian forces entered Berlin
                    on the same day.
                    \_ Americans took Sicily from Italians who knew very little
                       about war (incidentally Italians and Romanians were the
                       rear units of the Army Group assigned to take
                       Stalingrad, they were easily overrun and destroyed by
                       the Russians, completing the encirclement.)  The Allies
                       didn't take North Africa from the Axis for as long as
                       Rommel was there, kicking ass and taking names.
                        \_ Rommel got his ass kicked in N.Africa.  Try again.
                       Americans did take Normandy with some loss of life, and
                       I admit it to have been a gutsy move on their part.  My
                       point is, all these operations were minor at best, and
                       had no tangible influence on the outcome of the War that
                       was essentially fought on the Russian steppes.
                        \_ It's your point, yes, but it's also complete
              \_ There's a reason it was called an "alliance".  Without the
                 Americans (and British, Canadians, etc, etc) pulling forces
                 away from the east, the Russians would have been lucky to lose
                 only 50 million and it would've been a miracle if they didn't
                 get totally crushed even under the weak military leadership
                 Hitler provided.  That the Russians have a holiday for
                 something hardly makes it a historical fact that they single
                 handedly defeated the Nazis while the West watched from the
                 sidelines.  Your last line about uboats is historically
                 inaccurate and your entire revisionist line is a reinvention
                 of reality.  At least this time you tried to provide some
                 facts even though your baiting was still based on a flawed
                 understanding of history.  Read a book not published by the
                 producers of the People's Daily World some day.  For true
                 trolling you would have posted more numbers without any
                 citation and taken them as gospel.  You're getting better but
                 still need some work.  I'm changing your D- to a B-.
                 \_ Troll schools are hard up for teachers, aren't they?
                    Check for the gory details of the U-boat war
                    that american propaganda does not talk about.  Germans
                    measured U-boat success in thousands of tons of shipping
                    sunk.  As in 80 this month, 200 that month.  Do you realize
                    how much that is?  As for the West 'helping' the only real
                    help they provided to russia was very limited material
                    assistance via Archangelsk (which they could certainly
                    have done without).  By the time the Allies joined the
                    war in 1944, it was already won, the russians were chasing
                    germans across eastern europe back into Berlin.
                    \_ Yeah, the Russians did the most fighting, but even
                       before normandy, the other allies absorbed some
                       German forces in north africa, the balkans, battle of
                       britain, bombing of Germany, etc.
                       \_ True enough, Rommel and his Afrika Corp was kept
                          somewhat occupied trouncing British forces (which
                          outnumbered him and had far more supplies).  The
                          poster I was replying to, though, was claiming that
                          without Allies Russia would have likely lost, which
                          is ridiculous.  America deliberately sat on the
                          sidelines to let Russia and Germany bleed each other.
                          This is a fine political strategy, but please don't
                          have the gall to claim some sort of value or military
                          worth for America's participation in WWII.
                          \_ Rommel got pounded in North Africa.  He wasn't
                             "kept somewhat occupied".
                          \_ well, you have to admit that russia got its ass
                             kicked hard up until stalingrad. the germans
                             failed at stalingrad partly due to factors caused
                             by having to deal with the other allies on the
                             other fronts, and having their airforce wiped out,
                             and being bombed to hell by massive fleets of
                             US bombers. if the germans had been able to bring
                             the full blitzkrieg on early enough, with full
                             support, it's doubtful the russians would have

                             made it through that winter.
                             \_ Russia did get its ass kicked hard.  But the
                                victory at Stalingrad was entirely Russia's.
                                The bombing that early in the war had no
                                appreciable effect, Britain's Bomber command
                                was taking it's heaviest losses at that time.
                                The real reason Russia won Stalingrad was
                                Hitler's stupid insistence on taking the city
                                (as it was symbolic, being named after his
                                adversary), as well Russia's first use of
                                sophisticated pincer tactics in delaying the
                                bulk of German forces in Stalingrad's rubble,
                                while using fresh divisions to surround, break
                                up, and finally destroy Paulus' forces.
                                \_ Russia hardly invented pincer tactics.  The
                                   Romans were flanking their enemies 2000+
                                   years earlier.  Good try.
                                   \_ You didn't parse my sentence correctly.
                                      I didn't claim Russia invented pincer
                                      tactics, merely that Stalingrad was the
                                      first time Russia used such tactics.
                          \_ I agree.  I have a lot of respect for the Russian
                             tenacity in breaking the Wehrmacht.  I agree that
                             Russia would likely be able to defeat Hitler
                             even without the western front being opened, as
                             can be seen from Stalingrad and Kursk.  However,
                             US and Britain did make the job much easier and
                             less costly with the landing at Normandy and
                             subsequent actions.  US involvement also prevented
                             western Europe from becoming Soviet's protectorates.
                             Also, we must remember that WWII started when
                             Hitler and Stalin decided to divide up Poland.
                             Finally, US did help win the War in Asia.
           \_ Russia probably could have helped herself a lot more by not
              signing a treaty with the Nazis in 1939, dividing Poland between
              the two of them, and sitting on their collective asses while
              Western Europe was overrun in the blitzkrieg.
                 \_ Wouldn't have worked. Even before his rise to power
                    Hitler felt that russia could not be trusted and
                    would need to have been eliminated.
                    \_ General Patten (sp?) felt the same.
              \_ well, then they probably wouldn't have ended up annexing
                 said half of poland, and east prussia. i bet stalin didn't
                 really give a shit about the tens of millions of lost lives.
                 strategically, the war was quite good for russia and made
                 them a superpower.
           \_ Um, isn't (s)he talking about some specific event, like that
              time when they led the Germans in really deep over the cracking
              ice so they all froze and drowned?
              \_ Dude, that event is Alexander Nevsky's victory over the
                 mute Germans. That happened like in the 14th cent. or sth.
              \_ Hmm, this sounds like how they defeated the French army
                 under Napoloen.
                 \_ A little known meteorological fact:  The worst winters in
                    Russian history were in the years 1812, and 1943.
                    \_ How lucky the Russians were!
                       \_ "Lucky."
                           \_ It's not that the Russians were lucky, it's
                              just that evil people like Napoleon and Hitler
                              were unlucky.  Napoleon's real bad luck was that
                              he fought a Britain that just started undergoing
                              the industrial revolution.
2001/5/10 [Computer/Networking] UID:21221 Activity:kinda low
5/9     netstat -upl, run as root on a Linux box:
        Active Internet connections (only servers)
        Proto Local Address  Foreign Address   PID/Program name
        udp   *:32768        *:*               -
        udp   *:799          *:*               -
        udp   *:800          *:*               -
        udp   *:sunrpc       *:*               110/portmap
        Is there any way of determining who is listening on 32768
        and friends?  I don't think I've been 0wn3d...?
        \_ lsof -i :32768
           \_ losf is probably trojaned, so is netstat. You will
              never be able to track it down. Reinstall while you
              still have a chance.
              \_ Victim could build and copy in tools from somewhere else
                 but if Victim was really hacked, you're right.  Reinstall
                 and do a better job securing the box next time.
           \_ So, what, go OpenBSD?
                \_ Or maybe just stop running random and useless services you
                   don't need or use that are known to come from a bad code
                   base like wu-ftpd.
           \_ "lsof -V -i UDP:32768" produces:
                 lsof: Internet address not located: UDP:32768
2001/5/10 [Recreation/Celebrity/MichaelJackson, Recreation/Food] UID:21222 Activity:high
5/9     Boy howdy isn't he delicious?
        \_ that must be the love child of Michael Jackson and Little
        \_ yum!
           \_ Omigawd!  It's President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo with a
              mustache!  Got chocolate milk?  -brian
           \_ The one named "George" is fake.  It's the picture of an actor
              in Hong Kong.
              \_ actually I've also seen this guy with his own personal web ad.
2001/5/10 [Science/Space, Science/Electric] UID:21223 Activity:high
5/9     You realize that if the people in LA stop running the 8hr swimming
        pool motor, we wouldn't have this power crisis? Of course their
        pool is gonna be moldy, but who cares...
        \_ You realise that per capita, Californians conserve more power than
           any other State's citizens and that we need more power plants?
           \_ Would somebody verify this?  I've seen it in an email forward
              but I don't believe it.
                \_ Californians live in California, which needs heating and
                   cooling less than any other state.  -tom
                   \_ Which means there isn't much more conserving to be done.
                      We're already using less power than if we were in Texas
                      during summer or Maine during winter.  You can't squeeze
                      blood from a rock.
                      \_ Not necessarily.  It *could* mean that we can cut back
                         even more on heating and cooling given the relatively
                         mild climate, as long as we are willing to tolerate
                         a bigger temperature range with our bodies.  Just set
                         back your thermostats a little, and turn it off when
                         you're not there.  Also turn off the monitors and
                         lights when you leave your office.  All are just
                         simple easy steps.  I have a friend who lives alone in
                         a 2400sq ft house in Santa Clara.  He leaves his AC on
                         24hrs/day.  I asked him why he doesn't turn it off
                         when he goes to work to try to conserve, and he said
                         "oh, because electricity is cheap."
                         \_ This simply means he isn't paying what the power
                            really costs.  Ask him again at the end of July
                            when he sees that month's bill how cheap his power
                            is after the next rate increase.  Anyway, your one
                            friend is hardly representitive of the average CA
                            citizen.  Resources are a supply/demand problem.
                            I find it silly to attack the problem from only
                            one side.  Yes, people should not waste power on
                            stuff (like turn off the lights when you leave a
                            room, duh), however we should be increasing supply
                            as well.  Note that a lot of the problem is that
                            the so-called de-regulation (it wasn't) disallowed
                            the signing of long term low cost power contracts
                            so pg&e and sdge(?) got stuck buying spot power at
                            short term daily rates.  Ooops.  This situation is
                            not the fault of the consumer.
                         \_ And don't leave your computer on just because you
                            want to process more SETI@home units.  That defeats
                            the original purpose of the project which is to
                            utilize computer uptime that are otherwise wasted.
                         \_ I think employers should fine their employees who
                            don't turn things off when they leave work.
                            \_ We call this "layoffs" or "firing".  Fines are
                               for the government not your employer.
           \_ Search for "California ranks 48th" and you can find the chain-
              letter in all kinds of chat sites.  I think that's just what it
              is -- a chain letter.
        \_ They could run the motors at night, when the load isn't peaked
           by all the damn air conditioners.  PG&E and/or Edison was supposedly
           offering $20 rebates (peanuts, IMHO) to people who do this.
        \_ on an unrelated note, how is generated electricity stored?
           Curious mind wants to know.
           \_ Giant capacitors
              \_ wrong.
                 \_ It was a damn joke fool.
           \_ I guess stored by pumping water upward as potential energy.
              \_ wrong.
             \_ This is definitely one of the ways. The State Water Project
                pumps water back into some of the reservoirs during off-peak
                hours so that they can use the water for generating power
                during peak hours. -ulysses
           \_ Human batteries
              \_ wrong.
           \_ that's the problem, for the most part, it isn't stored
              \_ wrong.
           \_ all electricity goes from the electric company to your house
              and back to the electric company.  it's a big scam.
              \_ correct.
                  \_ morons.
2001/5/10 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD, Computer/SW/Editors/Vi] UID:21224 Activity:nil
5/9     I'm having trouble getting vi on OpenBSD to load .exrc/.virc.
        Anyone have a similar experience?
        \_ Make sure you do not have an $EXINIT or $NEXINIT environment
           variable set.
           \_ Thanks!  I think that worked.
2001/5/10 [Health/Men] UID:21225 Activity:nil
5/9     The X-Men are coming soon!  Mutant kids everywhere!,3604,487857,00.html
2001/5/10 [Finance/Shopping] UID:21226 Activity:kinda low
5/9     Anyone have any opinions on video projectors? I need
        to buy one and cost is an issue. I've only ever used the
        fancy, schamncy ones that cost over $5k. In particular,
        are the cheaper Infocus models any good? -payam
        \_ used a cheaper-end Infocus machine to display the Boston Aquarium cam
           on the wall of our office for a while: worked fine, easy to set up,
           power cable pretty much interchangeable with that of any number of
           office machines-- doesn't handle resolutions above 800x600 too well
2001/5/10 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:21227 Activity:nil
5/9     The SOUTH will rise again.
        \_ Dammit, yermom is on the computer again.
           \_ yeah she got tired of being on you.
              \_ She never gets tired of being on me. - #1 stunna
        \_ Example of bad troll.  No one on the west coast gives a shit about
           the civil war, the south, the confederacy or anything else related.
           \_ Y'all come back now, y'a hear?
           \_ All the non-black "minorities" don't care?  I do.  -- asian
                \_ You care about some nonsense about "the south rising again"?
                   Get over it.  Asian or otherwise.
              \_ WTF is a minority? There are only two types of people
                 in this world Americans and non-Americans. I belong
                 to the former. What about you?
                 \_ That makes you a minority as most of the world fits into
                    the "non-American" category.  :-)
        \_ They're too busy being stuck in traffic to be rising anywhere.
2001/5/10 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:21228 Activity:high
5/9     Does anybody have clearer photos on how to perform either
        the "cog-trick"  or the "knife-trick" disk swap on a ps2?
        The demonstration photos on the web are abysmal.  It's
        too bad they haven't figured out a complete, external usb
        plug-in other than the sbox plug which...doesn't help very much.
        Much obliged.
        \_ sign your name so we can send out the Hunter Killer Aibo
           to give you a personal demonstration.
        \_ it's not that hard to figure out from the pictures on the web.
           imo, the knife method is easier if you use a nail file.  grab
           the file from sgt. dan's site ( i'm
           not afraid to sign my name. -uctt
              \_ the photo I've seen of how to remove the front panel
                 of the drawer isn't THAT clear.  And admittedly, I am
                 a bit leery about accidentally breaking off the tab
                 that holds it in place.  I mean, it'd still work...but
                 it'd be like if you had a new car and then proceeded
                 the next day to dent the front end by hitting a tree
                 or something...

                 And jwang, I got one thing for you.  No, make that two:

            1)     =P  PPPPPPLLLLlllllllllllllllt!  Neener neener neener
                     you can't catch me.  I'll do whatever I damn well please.

            2)    (__)(__)  Kiss my ugly deformed ass, motherf******!!!
                 \_ You're such a twink.  --!jwang

        \_ <DEAD><DEAD> has good pictures
                |_ How about a ps2 mod chip or workaround ?
        \_ it's really hard to get that cover off without breaking off the
           little tab.  i was real careful and got it out without breaking
           but it later ended up breaking off anyway.  there are ps2 chips
           (sbox and neo2 are the most popular) but there's really no
           need to get one at this point.  the chips aren't that great
           and you still need to swap disks with gameshark 2.  just get
           a gameshark 2 to play your backups. -uctt
2001/5/10 [Uncategorized] UID:21229 Activity:kinda low
5/8     How do I make majordomo not send me 2 copies of emails sent to and when I'm on both mailing lists?
        I have perms on, but dont want to go from 1.9.4 to mj2
        \_ Unsubscribe from one of the lists.  :-)
2001/5/10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:21230 Activity:very high
5/10  From McVeigh's own words, censored by the US Media:
                                \_ censored my ass. this is old news.
      "Therefore this bombing was meant as a pre-emptive (or
      pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and
      control centres within the federal building. When an aggressor
      force continually launches attacks from a particular base of
      operations, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to
      the enemy. Additionally, borrowing a page from US foreign
      policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was
      becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building
      and the government employees within that building who represent
      that government. Bombing the Murrah federal building was
      morally and strategically equivalent to the US hitting a
      government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations." -FC
        \_ Why would anyone bother to censor crap like this?  And if it was
           censored, how did you get the quote?
           \_ How do we justify calling it crap?  I'd like to see him hanged,
              but his statement above doesn't seem illogical.
              \_ He's a whack and a mass murderer and his 'statement' about
                 being some sort of warrior for good and the american way is,
                 at best, just an incredibly lame rationalization.  It's crap.
              \_ us bombing iraq is a state taking action against another
                 state. someone bombing a us building, is a citizen
                 against the state. the rules of engagement are different
                 and methods of enforcement are different. also, if iraq could,
                 it would retaliate against US. in the same way that US
                 it retaliating against mcveigh.
                 \_ I dont understand what the problem is about paying
                    some schmuck $1mil to do exactly what mcveigh did, and
                    leave the country. If mcveigh did that, he never would have
                     been caught. But apparrently iraq doesnt wish to waste
                     its money like that. Its not a "cant", its a "wont".
                     Because if they did that, and iraq was discovered as the
                     instigator, the US would bomb the crap out of iraq.
                     This whole iraq "issue" would have been resolved a long
                     time ago if there was all-out war between the US and iraq.
                     \_ Who really cares what a whack job like McVeigh thinks?
2001/5/10-12 [Computer/HW/Laptop, Science/Electric, Computer/HW/Display] UID:21231 Activity:kinda low
5/10    I remember reading that flat-panels work best at their singluar native
        resolution (usually something like 1024x768) and looked not as good at
        other resolutions. Do current flat-panels still have such issues?
        \_ Yes.  It's funadmental to the design.  -tom
        \_ I just bought a Dell Inspiron 8000 with a native resolution of
           1400x1050 and although the display does not look as sharp in a
           non-native resolution (like 1280x1024 or 1024x768) it is more
           than acceptable.  I don't see any strange artifacts of things of
           that nature, I believe the technology for doing this has advanced
           in recent years. -eric
           \_ The only way you could ever have one that looked (nearly) as
              good as a CRT is if you had a high enough resolution such that
              you could use even multiples of scaled pixels to simulate the
              lower resolution.  i.e.: you can't "do" a clean 640x480 with
              a 1024x768 monitor, but you could with a 1280x960 screen (use
              a square of 4 pixels to simulate a single larger one), and it
              would look just fine.
        \_ I assume you mean LCD displays?  there are also plasma flat panels.
           LCDs obviously have a native resolution.
           \_ plasma displays are cell-based too. but w/ additional color
              fidelity than lcds, they usually show fuzzy resampling
              artifacts instead of the interleaved integer pixel expansions
              of lcd panels at non-native resolutions.
2001/5/10-11 [Health] UID:21232 Activity:moderate
5/10    Watching TV one'd think that Americans are in a lot of pain because of
        all the pain killer commercials.  Tylenol, Advil, etc.  Just how
        often do Americans get headaches?  I for one can't even remember the
        last time that I had a headache.
        a couple times a day:
        a couple times a week:
        a couple times a month:
        once a month: <none, there are no females who read the motd>
        Only when I'm sick:  .
        I can't really tell cuz yermom is sitting on my face: .
        have headache but don't take pain killers:      .
2001/5/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:21233 Activity:kinda low
5/10    Some motd cleaning.  Go to the archives if you care.
        \_ Where?
2001/5/10-12 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:21234 Activity:high
5/10  Is it too much to ask:  I'm looking for an open-source accounting/
      inventory controll application.  suggestions?  If there are none
      (i've been unsuccessful searching) is that an inditement of open-
      source.  (i.e. boring but usefull sofware will not get made in an
      all open source world).
        \_ boring is in the eye of the beholder.
        \_ spelling is usefull [sic].  Your troll is pathetic.  Open-source is
                                            \_ Shouldn't that be trolll?
                                                \_ heh. A+.
           not equivalent to "developed by volunteers".  And the lack of
           a particular kind of software is no more an inditement [sic] of
           open-source than the lack of a closed-source "mutt" is an
           indictment of closed-source.  In this particular case, the MOTD
           has already given you multiple open-source solutions.  -tom
            \_ Yes, "spelling" allows one to write a word which others will
               understand to be the same word.  Oh, but you did understand.
               Close Enough: Hand Grenades, HorseShoes and Spelling.
               SQL-ledger was exactly what i was looking for (thanks below)
               I had not seen it on the MOTD before.
               \_ Yes, I understood that you're a fucking idiot.  If that's
                  the message you're trying to get across, good job.  -tom
      \_ wasn't this answered in a previous motd question?
      \_ sql-ledger
2001/5/10-11 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:21235 Activity:high
5/10    I know this sounds like a troll, but seriously....  There's a sticker
        on the gas pump at my local station that says, "This product contains
        MTBE which is known to the State of California to cause environmental
        harm".  Ok, knew that.  But the idea was supposed to be that we add
        MTBE to protect the environment.  But here we are with MTBE laden
        fuel that costs more but doesn't protect anything.  What gives?  Is
        there a real explanation for this?  Why are we using MTBE?
        \_ MTBE lowers hazzardous air emissions, but contaminates
           ground water. EPA misadvised the Bush Sr. Administration
           which signed off prematurely and corporate lobbies pushed MTBE
           through before we knew the later facts about ground water
           in detail.
           \_ Ok, so what does MTBE do for the corporate lobbies?  What do
              they care?  And why can't we dump it now that we know better?
              \_ MTBE clean up for a gas station is extremely expensive.
                 \_ So they don't have to do any cleanup as long as they put
                    the stuff in the gas and continue poisoning the water
                    supply, but once they decide to stop ruining the water,
                    it suddenly becomes expensive?
                    \_ Cleanup is now  required by state law.
              \_ I read that MTBE can be substitued by ethanol.  Eliminating
                 MTBE can mean either increase (if air standard is still
                 required) or decrease (if air standard is lowered) ethanol
                 demand.  Ethanol is made from corn.  Corn in US is politics.
                 -- yuen
            \_ MTBE is a by-product of the refining process, so otherwise
               the refineries would have to dispose of it.  That's why they
               want to keep selling it
2001/5/10-12 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:21236 Activity:high
5/10    I've been having a hell of a time finding any summer jobs.
        Is anyone here hiring programmers for the summer?
        \_ Unfortunately not. I've been trying to push our company
           to hire a few interns this summer and its almost impossible.
           No one wants to spend money on *anything* including interns.
        \_ No.
        \_ shit is tough right now, I've been looking as well...
        \_ Think, "dotcoms bomb, programmers everywhere".  Kid there are so
           many unemployed and underemployed coders out there with years more
           real world experience than you that you should forget about any
           sort of technical job this summer and just find a nice beach.  In
           fact there are plenty of very talented and highly skilled people
           out of work right now willing to take almost anything.
              You just can't admit to yourselves that you are not that bright.
           \_ Stupid dotcom programmers everywhere.  I don't know a single
              intelligent programmer who is having a hard time finding work.
              The last time smart people had problems with work was 1930s.
              \_ I think it has less to do with how smart the person is and
                 more to do with how "on the money" the company itself is.
                 if the company is a loser, it doesn't matter how "useful"
                 you could be because you're expending your smarts on stuff
                 that really doesn't matter to the people paying the bills,
                 which is ultimately the customers. Of course, it's harder
                 to get a job at a good company because you're competing
                 against the other smart people. And obviously, this is
                 because smart people look at the business plan and don't
                 go work for a loser. Ergo, dotcommers are NOT smart. QED.
                 I guess I just contradicted myself. Whatever.
                  \_ Yes, it's easy to use 20/20 to say what was good and what
                     was bad.  If I was employee #1 at Netscape or Yahoo or
                     others I'd be a genius, right?  No.  There's a lot of
                     luck involved.  Research and business plan examining only
                     goes so far.  If it was that easy, then every business
                     plan would be a success as no one would ever have a bad
                     plan.  You're not making sense.
                     \_ Well, Netscape had a crappy business plan; they were
                        a stock only company. I for one never saw anything
                        to it, it was clear early on that the value of the
                        browser was only strategic; since Netscape didn't
                        have anything to leverage the browser with it was
                        pointless. Yahoo is a decent company because they
                        actually have a business model and are useful.
                        But it's a web site; they don't need armies of
                        developers. Most of the failed dotcoms were hyped
                        bullshit and many people said as much at the time.
                        \_ Netscape was selling the server, not the browser.
                           You *could* buy the browser but that wasn't their
                           point.  Yahoo is just a web site?  You've never
                           actually looked at all the different shit Yahoo
                           offers, then.  Go look around their site at all
                           the services (whether you find them personally
                           useful or not) and tell me that doesn't take a
                           lot of coders to write and maintain?
                           \_ it was the browser that had the value. since
                              they didn't take advantage of it when they had
                              the chance, i attribute it to poor management.
                              those "servers" obviously weren't demanded by
                              the market. the browser was; but it doesn't
                              make money on its own. i guess it's true that
                              microsoft killed them, but then who didn't see
                              that coming once IE 1.0 came out. as for yahoo,
                              it's a portal, they are a good one with a large
                              customer base, but that business model just
                              doesn't support a big overhead. how many is
                              "a lot" of coders to you? most of it looks like
                              monkey work.
                              \_ How many is "an army of developers" to you?
                                 This is all beside the point. The front office
                                 girl at NS retired a multi millionaire.  Was
                                 she a genius or she just get lucky?  The point
                                 being that you can't *know* for certain if a
                                 small company will make it until it's all
                                 hindsight and the post-analysis geniuses crawl
                                 out from under their rocks and claim they knew
                                 it all along.
              \_ Yes, you rule the universe.
                   \_ No, but we are smarter than you.
                        \_ No, I'm certain you rule the universe.  Afterall,
                           it's a fact that anyone who ever worked for a
                           company that did layoffs or went out of business is
                           a no-talent moron, right?
                           \_ You are making a clumsy strawman, no wonder you
                              can't find work.  No, smart people get laid off
                              too, but unlike mediocrities like you, they can
                              easily find another job.
                                \_ I didn't make the strawman.  Just rewording
                                   the one that was already there.  And because
                                   I know you're concerned, I'm gainfully
                                   employed.  Thanks for showing concern.  Are
                                   you one of the academic employees here who
                                   mistakenly believes that skilled people
                                   always easily get a new job and lesser
                                   talents don't?  The world isn't like that.
                                   \_ No I am not, I am merely a programmer
                                      who was not laid off (because I was
                                      actually useful to my company).
                                      \_ Silly boy.  A lot of programmers who
                                         are useful to their companies got the
                                         axe.  No one is immune.  You honestly
                                                         \_ I am immune.
                                                            \_ Only if you
                                                               work for a
                                                               company of
                                                               one and maybe
                                                               not even then.
                                                My company is an obvious
                                                counterexample (60).  The basic
                                                point you seem unable to
                                                comprehend is, despite what
                                                managers tell you, in times of
                                                belt tightening the fat, not
                                                the muscle, gets eliminated.
                                                If you were eliminated you
                                                were not useful.  If you are
                                                still working, you are useful.
                                                End of story.  Stop
                                                hypothesising (incorrectly)
                                                about the possible state of
                                                my company, or else continue
                                                sounding the fool.
                                                \_ 60 people?  You work for a
                                                   tiny blip of a company and
                                                   think your company is immune
                                                   to the economy and the
                                                   marketplace?  I've seen
                                                   perfectly good people get
                                                   axed at several companies.
                                                   You're fooling yourself if
                                                   you think your tiny little
                                                   speck of a company is some
                                                   magical wonderland immune
                                                   to a bad economy, management
                                                   mistakes, overhiring,
                                                   changes in the market which
                                                   make your product/service
                                                   obsolete or unnecessary or
                                                   any of a million other
                                                   causes of company downturn
                                                   and layoffs.  Is this your
                                                   first job?  You sound a lot
                                                   like my friends who thought
                                                   their first job was magic,
                                                   \_ My first job sucked.
                                                \_ If times get too tight
                                                   even you will go.
                                                   \_ Sure, along with the
                                                      whole company.  This
                                                      will happen if we have
                                                      another 1930s style
                                                      recession, then it will
                                                      suck for everyone, even
                                                      smart people.  Right now,
                                                      however, only idiots are
                                                      let go.
                                                      \_ That's all I ment
                                                         by the statement
                                                         that no one is
                                                      \_ 1930s was a depression.
                                                      \_ What's the name of
                                                         this special place you
                                                         work for (currently)?
                                                         I'd like to judge for
                                                         myself how long you'll
                                                         have a job.
                                                         \_ I ll know in a year
                                                            if the company
                                                            \_ *laugh*  Not if
                                                               you get laid off
                                                               \_ No way!
                                         think the people doing the cutting
                                         even know who the hell you are or that
                                         you exist as anything more than an
                                         employee number, a title, and a number
                                         on their salary spreadsheet?  You'll
                                         figure it out one day.  No one
                                         important at your company knows who
                                         the hell you are or gives a damn.
                                         \_ Everyone important knows who I am.
                                            It's not a large company, of
                                            course.  Stop hypothesising
                                            (incorrectly) about the possible
                                            state of my company, or else
                                            continue sounding the fool.
                                            \_ URL, please?
              \_ Not quite.  The large number of idiots currently in the job
                 market make it harder for employers to spot the worthwhile
                 job applicants.  Also, many companies are currently under
                 hiring freezes, which make it more difficult for them to
                 hire worthwhile people when they *do* identify them.
        \_ Kid, I hear the mall is hiring.  Try Mrs. Field, they're always
                \_ And think of all the free cookies you and your friends can
                   get.  Since your friends won't have jobs either, they'll
                   really appreciate the free cookies.
                \_ In Portland all my friends had retail food jobs.  Rent was
                   very low (less than $300) and we never had to buy food
                   due to our network.  Our rent may not be low here, but
                   remember it pays to make lots of friends and always give
                   out free things if you can afford it.  It will help you
                   through tougher times.      -brain
        \_ It's a good summer to do research and take summer school...
        \_ I'm hungry. Go make me some fries.
           \_ I'm not just making a burger. I'm making your burger.
        \_ go work in las vegas.
        \_ Those fishing boats up in AK might hire.
                \_ Slave labor is always available in good times and bad, yes.
2001/5/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:21237 Activity:kinda low
5/10  McVeigh exterminated for not being an interesting topic.
        \_ we should air the execute primetime just like the good ole
         days in france. that's about the only thing the french ever did
         that was useful/good/beneficial to humanity, that and inventing
         the white flag (only they could come up with that).
        \_ McVeigh may not be executed.
2001/5/10-11 [Uncategorized] UID:21238 Activity:high
5/9/1945 Germany exterminated for excessive suck.
        \_ boring! go back to that infamy guy.
2019/02/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2001:May:10 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>