Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:December:22 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2000/12/22-2001/1/22 [Uncategorized] UID:20154 Activity:nil
12/21   Soda will briefly be down for maintnance at a yet unspecified time
        after Christmas.  This is your advance warning.  -root
2000/12/22-23 [Reference/BayArea, Politics/Domestic/SIG] UID:20155 Activity:high
12/21   Why are people anti-union? Every human product is ambiguous, that
        doesn't mean we forbid ourselves from creation. Liquor is good
        (relaxation, thinning blood), liquor is bad (insert standard args).
        What it means is simple to state, but difficult to enact: we must
        be aware of both sides of the story, and relaize that both have
           \_ Communism, socialism, naziism, totalitarianism and right wing
              fanatics are bad. They are evil. They have no redeeming
              qualities. There is no two sides to this story. Supressing
              the rights of the one in favor of the rights of the many is
              wrong. There is no two sides to that story. Get you head out
              of your arse.
              \_ Union != Communism.
                 Union != Socialism.
                 Union != Naziism.
                 Union != Totalitarianism.
                 Banning unions requires you ammend the constitution to
                 nullify the freedom of assembly. That is one of the
                 elements to communism, socialism, naziism, and
        \_ As a concept I'm not opposed to unions.  I think people need to
           have a place to go to make sure things like worker safety are
           taken care of.  The reality is that unions today really only focus
           on themselves as a political entity and not worker safety, rights,
           or anything else unless worker benefits just happen to coincide with
           the betterment of the union.
        \_ Unions are based on socialistic principles about "collective"
           power and "workers" rights. These things are directly opposed
           to individual freedoms and the free market system.
        \_ "Big business is based on capitalistic principles about "profit"
           and "corporate" rights.  These things are directly opposed to
           individual freedoms and the free market system (since it's not
           in business' interests to have free markets--c.f. Microsoft)"
              \_ Monopolies are opposed to individual rights, but
                 in a true free market a monopoly will not last for
                 Microsoft got to where it is at because its competition
                 made mistakes. Microsoft is slow losing ground,
                 and its not because of the government. Its because
                 they have made missteps in strategy allowing competitors
                 to gain ground.
                 If you don't like MS vote with your $s. That's what
                 I do.
           \_ Nah.  Unions are not necessarily bad.  Unions empower the
              individual against the collective power of big businesses.
              Critical to the health of democracies is the ability and
              freedom for individuals to form various organizations
              including religious organizations such as churches,
              professional organizations such as IEEE, recreational/
              hobby organizations such as your local Linsux chapter,
              and finally organizations like the Sierra Club or
              NRA and also labor unions.  These organizations give
              individuals support and a collective voice in the issues
              they care for.  The membership should be at will.
              Observe that dictators and authoritarian regimes hate
              these kind of organizations and will always try to
              destroy or control them.  The Walesa-led union was
              hated by the Polish communist regime back in the Soviet
              era, and the china commies hate the local churches and
              even the falungong.  Authoritarian and undemocratic
              Singapore does not allow unions except for a government-
              controlled one.  Without such organizations, the
              individual is isolated, and powerless, and subject to
              abuse and oppression by the only organization left -
              the government.  Unions help to balance the power of
              another type of organization that sometimes abuses
              the individual - i.e. big businesses.  Come to think
              of it, it is arguable that Singapore and present-day
              China are two countries when an authoritarian government
              and big businesses collude to abuse and exploit the
                     Big Business helps individuals generate _/
                     wealth. Unions don't help anyone generate
                     anything. Big Business is what powers the
                     countries prosperity, not Unions. Unions
                     leach the profits of Big Buiness. Business
                     free and unrestrained by bureaucrats and
                     union bosses is critical for the health
                     democracy, freedom, liberty, prosperity.
                     Unions seek to destroy what good Business
                     has created.
                     \_ Yes. Because we all know that unions
                        segments.   Thanks.
                        have a vested interest in destroying
                        good business. Pull you fucking head
                        out of your ass and grow a brain you
                        moron. Unions are a vehicle for
                        bargaining. Everyone bargains for
                        employment compensation, not just
                        UAW workers and other blue collar
                        workers. No shit, unions aren't
                        designed to generate profits the same
                        way water isn't used to fuel cars.
                        Maybe if looked "union" up in a
                        dictionary you'd understand. Unions are
                        guaranteed by the first ammendment. If
                        you're suggesting banning unions then
                        you certainly have no respect for our
                        democracy and freedom.
                     \_ Please don't break what I wrote into
                        segments.   Thanks.  I agree with you
                        that big business is great, generally
        \_ "Big business is based on capitalistic principles about "profit"
           and "corporate" rights.  These things are directly opposed to
           individual freedoms and the free market system (since it's not
           in business' interests to have free markets--c.f. Microsoft)"
              \_ Monopolies are opposed to individual rights, but
                 in a true free market a monopoly will not last for
                 \_ Ah yes, the magical invisible hand of the market.  Do you
                    *ever* use your brain?  -tom
                 Microsoft got to where it is at because its competition
                 made mistakes. Microsoft is slow losing ground,
                 and its not because of the government. Its because
                 they have made missteps in strategy allowing competitors
                 to gain ground.
                 If you don't like MS vote with your $s. That's what
                 I do.
              \_ they try to hurt scabs and that is anti-competitive.
                 \_ That's wrong and the people who practice such
                    should be shot. But that's not the premise of
                    unions or collective bargaining.
              \_ Membership in a Union is different than membership
                 in the IEEE or the NRA or a given religious institution.
                 1. In no industry is IEEE or NRA membership required
                    for getting or keeping your job. Try to be non
                    union in the automotive or trucking or teaching
                    industries and see how long you last. (They will
                    force you out or get you to join).
                    \_ Please don't compare IEEE to the NRA. There's
                       a stark difference in the practices in civility
                       and political influence between the two groups.
                       \_ sidenly i am wondering how many IEEE members are
                          in the NRA...Based on what ive seen i'll bet its
                          alot more than the average number for a random
                          group of people.
                          \_ Probably not. IEEE members are not the
                             "I love god and my family and go to church
                             with ma girlfriend every Sunday. On weekdays
                             my ma and pa come to ma school and watch
                             me play football cause I'm the star
                             quaterback. Then me and ma buds hop in my
                             Chevrolet and guy hunting on the weekends.
                             When I go to Texas A&M Iam going to go
                             join the Army ROTC and serve ma country and God.
                             Ma idol is George W. Bush. Because he
                             believes in family values." type people.
                             How many IEEE members do you know have the
                             Hank Hill personality and aspire to taking
                             over the family farm?
                       \_ The NRA doesn't advocate threatening
                          or maiming non-NRA members in times
                          of dispute. The IEEE doesn't either.
                          Unions do. That's the point.
                          \_ Some unions do, others don't.  That's
                             the point.
                 2. The IEEE and the NRA do not engage in activities
                    like strikes, picketing, mass violence. These are
                    anti-competitive terrorist measures designed to
                    exploit business owners.
                    \_ Union == organization that provide a means of
                       collective bargaining.
                       Union != terrorism
                       Union != strikes (sometimes they do but that's
                         not the premise)
                       Union != Mass violence
                       Everyone pickets. Republicans picket, democrats
                       picket, pro-lifers picket, pro-choicers picket,
                       hippies picket, anti-gays picket.
                       \_ The means of bargaining is terrorism,
                          strikers, mass violence. Union bosses
                          uses thier lazy bum union members to
                          incite violence against management and
                          customers so that management will pay
                          thier ransom quicker and all the Union
                          members can get back to sitting on thier
                          arses. Wonder why all the jobs are going
                          overseas? Its because most US workers
                          hate hard work, they all want to get paid
                          sitting around being idle. Business can't
                          afford this.
                          \_ I didn't see any violence in the United
                             Airlines union.
                             \_ which one.  pilots,flight attendants,
                 \_ I dare you to say that to a UAL Flight Attendant.
                                mechanics, etc have separate unions.
                                additionally, UAL flight attendants are
                                represented by a different union than say
                                Delta, for instance.
                 3. Union derived benefits for workers are like ransom
                    derived from hapless kidnap victims. The market
                    provides sufficient working conditions, Union
                    employees would prefer to sit on thier arses and
                    get paid rather than work, which is why they are
                    always striking.
                    \_ I dare you to say that to a UAL Flight Attendant.
                 Unions are a unholy menace to liberty and freedom
                 populated by lazy bums and lead by communists and
                 socialist who want to do away with the free market
                 in favor of state control of everything. They want
                 a world where every man is equal because every man
                 is a poor pathetic slob without hope. I prefer the
                 American dream, where every man is equal because
                 every man is rich with the hope of achieving all
                 that he wants.
        \_ Unions are bad because the mob tends to control them.
        Enuff said.
           \_ As opposed to presidential elections.
        \_ In a perfect world, Unions would form to empower the workers
           and make the workplaces more tolerable, and then they would
           dissolve until they were needed again.  In our world, unions
           form to solve problems, then their officers get used to the
           power they wield, and they refuse to dissolve the union,
           seeking instead to increase their power and influence.  More
           often than not, what we need are unions to depose the corrupt
           and corpulent unions that now exist.  --erikred
            \_ but of course none of the businesses are corrupt or coruplent.
                \_ Bingo!  Give that man a prize!
           \_ You've been watching too many movies. People don't like unions
              because the "traditional" union supported promotion and benefits
              by seniority as opposed to skill/performance. Think "tenure."
              Plus unions try to get the most from their employers which
              sometimes means they conflict. Most people would accept some
              pain to avoid conflict. A repo man spends his life getting
              into tense situations.
        \_ MORE! MORE! MORE!
2000/12/22-25 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/Theory] UID:20156 Activity:moderate
12/21   Turns out that I got a lower grade than I expected. If enough people
        in the class ask for a recount (all the grades), will it help? Has it
        ever happened before?
        \_ This doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Florida Supreme
           Court, but then again, that never stopped them before.  Go for it!
           Every grade must count!  Count all the grades!  Even the smudge you
           made on the paper in the place where the correct answer might have
           been implies you had "student-intent" to fill in the correct answer.
        \_ i had a teacher in hs who used to drink wine while he was grading
           and get really wasted.  sometimes he would only grade half the
           exam and you would get a 20 out of 100 or something, and demand
           a recount and get a 90.  suprisingly, he was a really good
           teacher otherwise.
        \_ Just don't let the professor stall till the grades are
           certified as final.
        \_ Grades may only be changed to correct errors, not because the
           \_ You can also file an appeal to a grade with some dept. at Cal.
              It doesn't only have to do with errors.
           professors grading scale was too high.  (However, if the prof
           consistently gives too many bad grades, he will get in trouble
           eventually - see the case of Prof. Wu & Math 1A/1B in the early
               \_ yah, that foolio got fucked up.  He's now been demoted
                  really awful in math.
           \_ are those errors as in "Ooops, I read that 3 as a 5 and
              misgraded you" or as in "Oh, I guess you answer is correct
              mine (prof's) is wrong"
           \_ I remember a horde of people dropping math 1a from wu in 91
           \_ I had Wu and I think I got a B. What was his deal?
           \- this is pretty funny ... --psb
              \_ excellent linkage, thanks psb. READ THIS people.
                 \_ it isn't *that* funny
           \_ Yeah, did something happen to Prof. "Hurricane" Wu?
                \_ As I recall, he was still allowed to teach but was no longer
                   allowed to have any part in the grading process including
                   setting the standards, creating the curve, grade appeals,
                   etc.  That was all given to his head TA.  Me?  I was there
                   for 10 minutes of lecture 1 and walked out.  I knew what I
                   was looking at.  This was while he was still allowed to
                   destroy hapless freshies.  Any survivors from Prof Shang's
                   math 1b class still around?  Oscillating circles.
2000/12/22-23 [Finance/Shopping] UID:20157 Activity:kinda low
12/21   I need to buy a new bed & mattress, but I'm a poor grad student.
        What's a place to buy a decent, cheap set in/near Berkeley?
        \_ futon?
        \_ Discount Depot on San Pablo near University.  They were the cheapest
           place for beds/mattresses/futons when I was an undergrad. --chris
           \_ Purchased twice(futons) from them over 8 year period in late 80s
              early 90s. Dunno about now, but they were good/fine then.Small
              delivery guy with compact toyota delivered the queen/full frame
              and futon himself up 3 floors for $10 fee.
2000/12/22-23 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:20158 Activity:high
10/21   I have a linux box in my baby's room upstairs and I want to be able to
        monitor the audio in the room from my laptop downstairs via the net
        connection we have, to make sure she's ok. What's the best tool for
        doing this? Is shoutcast server + shoutcast streamer overkill?
        \_ You DO mean a human infant, right?
        \_ Why don't you just buy a cheap baby monitor.  I'm sure that's
           a lot easier than setting up a Linux box. Besides, do you
           really think your baby really wants to sleep with a computer
           fan blowing?
           \_ The fan is probably soothing, actually. Even now I prefer to
              sleep with a heater, fan, or aquarium (gurgling) in the room.
        \_ Do you want your baby to grow up to be a geek?
        \_ Ditto on the baby monitor and computer noise.  Amazing.  I need to
           get a license to have a dog but any clown can have a kid.
           \_ I can't have a kid. I'm having a hard enough time getting
              out of this single life. -guy who thought of monitor & noise.
           \_ Usually requires two clowns, at least somewhere along the way.
              \_ I though babies came from storks
              \_ I thought babies came from storks.
              \_ Clown sex! Yeeeesss!
        \_ The Linux solution seems like overkill to me, too, but it might
           be good if you want a nanny monitor while you're at work.
           \_ Have you ever heard of this thing - it's called a
2000/12/22-25 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:20159 Activity:low
12/22   Does the VC++  debugger have a feature like the conditional
        breakpoint in gdb?  Basically I want to say something like
        "ignore this breakpoint unless X".  Also, how do I look at
        the value of foo[i]?  When foo is a pointer the debugger just
        lets me dereference foo, but that only gets me foo[0].  Obviously,
        I'd like to use a real OS, but the company I consult for is
        addicted to Windows.  Thanks. -emin
        \_ Anyway, something more helpful:
           VC++ does let you set conditional breakpoints. First set where
           you want the breakpoint, then press ALT-F9 to edit breakpoints.
           Select the breakpoint and click the Advanced button. Various
           other options are also available. Accessing foo[n] is possible,
           (via watches) but foo[i] is more difficult... it depends on the
           version of VC++ you have. --chucky
        \_ Windows is good for you if you're an idiot.  See axiom 1.
2000/12/22-27 [Consumer/GPS, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:20160 Activity:low
12/22   I am going on a trip to India soon.  Any recommendation for
        an inexpensive but decent GPS?  I will also use it for future
        trekking and hiking trip, both foreign and domestic.
        \- see and the sat-nav news group. you can
        probably get a faily basic one for $100-150. you canb also search the
        walllogs. these days i think you are basically paying for storage
        capacity and some users features ... not so much accuracy or
        sensitivity. --psb
        \_ Garmin G12 was $150 2 years ago, will do anything you need.  Newer
           Etrex model is half the size, same sort of pricing.
        \_ Magellan 310 on sale at Fry's for $89.95.  Also, if you have
           one of the higher level Palms, you can get a GPS attachment
           for $130 or so.
           \- one additional comment: i think GPSes are still pretty primitive
           in terms of user interface and are still geek toys. are you sure
           disposable income not to worry about a $100 here or there].--psb
           you want one? most geeks into geek toys tend to want the ones
           with all the features and not the low end ones [and have the
           disposable income not to worry about a $100 here or there].
           they also suck a lot of batteries, often dont work that well under
           tree cover without an ext antenna, so if you dont make a serious
           commitment to them, might not be worth taking at all. as with
           almost all consumer electronics, tomorrow it will be better and
           cheaper. --psb, former Garmin III+ owner recently return from india
2000/12/22-23 [Recreation/Dating] UID:20161 Activity:kinda low Edit_by:auto
12/22   I just want a hot sexy asian bf who looks like Dustin Ngyuen for
                                                       \_ who?
        X-Mas. Where can I find him?                            -lila
        \_ mail kchang
        \_ Sorry, all taken.  We're not hot because we're easy to land. -babe
        \_ I'm more hot and sexy than Dustin Nguyen. Do I not qualify?
           \_ Please sign your name so lila can get to know you.
        \_ Isthat the guy from 21 jump st. and the pam anderson show?
2000/12/22-25 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:20162 Activity:nil
12/22   I have a database program that I would like to view the code for. Any
        suggestions on how I go about doing this?
        \_ Download the source or objdump --disassemble
        \_ MS SQL?  Are you mad?  Do you *really* want to know how it works?
           \_ Am bettink is at least one line that looks like:
              return((char *)(rand()*0xFFFFFFFF));
2000/12/22-25 [Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:20163 Activity:very high
12/22   Why does last output show most connecting from IP instead of hostname?
        \_ because FreeBSD is stupid.  -tom
           \_ because tom is stupid.  -FreeBSD
              \_ wait a minute. FreeBSD can't write.
           \_ How is it stupid, tom?  There's only so much room to store
              or display hostnames, I'd imagine.  If the hostname is longer
              than that when reversed, would you rather get
              "cx425.sanjose.a" or a real IP address that you could resolve
              \- tom lacks fu to "last | ip2hostname" --psb
                \_ It's stupid because every other system in the world uses
                   hostname there and truncates it to the length of the field.
                   Intelligent systems which want the full length use an
                   extended utmp/wtmp.  And if you're going to use IP's, it's
                   the height of stupidity to only use them some of the time.
                   \_ Reason #1 "it's stupid because other people truncate
                      so you have incomplete and invalid hostnames"  Uh..huh
                      Reason #2: it's stupid because... it's the height of
                      stupidity.  Good, tom.
                        \_ How about Reason #1, if you want to get the normal
                           output of last now you have to do hundreds of name
                           lookups.  Typical BSD arrogance, "who cares what
                           behavior people need or expect."  -tom
                           \_ OK, tom: would you rather have chopped off,
                              indecipherable hostnames (which is what _every
                              one_ of those ip addrs would be) or ip addresses
                              that you _could_ look up?
                                    \- if you need to do lookups, you do them,
                                       if you dont need to do them, you dont.
                                       you are right this does make life harder
                                       for low-fu people and might not be a
                                       good decision if your goal is to
                                       maximize the number of people using your
                                       OS. but there are other goals --psb
                                \_ I would rather have "last" be what it
                                   always has been, and provide an additional
                                   option for new functionality, instead of
                                   changing the default behavior which has
                                   existed for n years (n > 20).  In terms of
                                   functionality, I find soda's "last" to be
                                   far less useful than a typical "last",
klee             ttyAm    Fri Dec 22 19:45 - 19:46  (00:00)
                                   because the information I'm looking for
                                   is usually not a specific hostname.  -tom
        \_ So back to my question, why are some with IP and some hostname?
           What causes it to be diff? thank you.
           \_ Picking a few lines at random, we have:
mchowla          ttyAz    Fri Dec 22 19:47 - 19:50  (00:02)
samli            ttyAm    <DEAD><DEAD>   Fri Dec 22 19:47 - 20:02  (00:15)
              as you can see, if the hostname were much longer than
              "", it wouldn't fit and you'd have to chop it
              off..  let's say it was ""
              you'd see something like "" as the hostname,
              which completely useless.  Better to give the IP, where you could
              at least run something like "last | ip2hostname" and have all
              of the hostnames (if poorly formatted)
              \_ so basically, it's inconsistent behavior. Why not all IPs?
                 And why a 16 char limit? IP is 15 char max(for now).
                                      \- do you feel stuff reporting in 512b
                                         blocks and have done so for n>20yrs
                                         should comtinue to do so? --psb
                                   \_ I dunno, my feeling is that it is
                                      better to fix things than to have
                                      fundamentally broken stuff lay around
                                      forever along with alternate "fixed"
                                      ways of doing things.  (Ever tried to
                                      program the Windows API?  It fucking
                                      sucks, and this is exactly why.)  -blojo
                                      \_ Hear hear.  It's not like this
                                         is even some programming interface.
                                         How many critical cross platform
                                         apps do you know of that depend on
                                         the formatting of last?
                     \- tom, there are times where change is merited.
                     the chown was changed to user:group ...
                     i bitched about that till i realized it made sense.
                     "the rest of the world" doesnt do everthing right the
                     first time ... so its a good thing they dont have their
                     head up their ass and can look around and learn. --psb
        \_ Tom said it's stupid so it's stupid.  Why do you all waste his
           precious netrek time asking why?  He said so and that should be good
           enough for the likes of you!
        \_ this thread is priceless.  it brings a tear to my eye.
           \- "i am tom, hear me roar"
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:December:22 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>