Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:October:25 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2000/10/25 [Academia/GradSchool] UID:19558 Activity:nil
10/24   What is a good score on the GRE? I'm looking to get into Cal or
        the Farm. I took it today and got 2200.
                                          \_ You suxor.
2000/10/25-26 [Computer/SW/Languages/Tcl] UID:19559 Activity:kinda low
10/24   We just bought John Ousterhout's dig, Ajuba Solutions.  Wonder if
        that's a good thing or a bad thing...?
        \_ We just bought a Thai hookah.  Wonder if that's a good thing
           or a bad thing...?
           \_ seano is that you?
           \_ I like hookah's. -curtis-e-bear
           \_ smoking bad
        \_ According to the Ajuba site, you're killing all their products
           so what the hell is the point?
        \_ Ousterhout is the Tcl guy, right?  Sooner dead the better.
        \_ Tickle's weak...but I mean, it's basically BASIC, and BASIC
           kicks ass.  So what went so horribly wrong?
           \_ No, only M$ Visual Basic kicks ass. TCL would kick ass
              if it was M$ Visual TCL.
           \_ #F, original BASIC has no procedures, local variables,
                variable declaration, pass by value, pass by reference,
                and a data structure. TCL has all of the above and more.
                The syntax of TCL is horrible, the runtime is weak due
                to the limitation of the data structure, but other than
                that it has all the basic elements of a sound programming
                language. Of course nowadays a good programming language
                is defined by how fast you can learn it and how easy you
                can build applications with it.
                \_ How can you have "local" variables with no proceedures
                   (and presumably no separate source files)
                \_ Don't forget OO with OTcl and there's also Tcl/Cl.
2000/10/25 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:19560 Activity:high
10/24   I bought something AS IS on eBay and it doesn't work. Is it legal
        (moral?) to resell it AS IS?
        \_ if you know it's defective and don't identify it as such,
           it's neither legal nor moral.  -tom
        \_ tom's opinion deleted.
           \_ BS. Caveat Emptor. If you say AS IS, only someone who is
              a total idiot would assume that it works. If you say AS IS
              it may or may not work, then you cannot be held legally
           \_ On the legal grounds, what are you using to support that it
              is illegal? On moral grounds, the device was $500... is the
              correct moral thing to do claim that it is not in working
                \_ Certainly that would be correct morally.  There are plenty
                   of legal grounds for being able to collect damages from
                   people who knowingly sell defective products.  -tom
              condition and get what I can for it (maybe $250)?
                \_ tom's opinion not respected
                           \_ Yes, but only if they do not state AS IS,
                              (perhaps working, perhaps not). And its
                              stupid to sell it for less than you bought
                              it. If some sucker is willing to pay you
                              for a broken POS more power to you.
                                \_ say no to tom
                                \_ look, troll, we know you're a stupid
                                   coward, but it's trivially obvious that
                                   selling known defective merchandise is
                                   actionable fraud, whether or not you
                                   say "as-is."  -tom
                        \_ In California, you are now legally required to
                           tell a potential buyer if your house is
                \_ Yeah, but usually it just comes down to them
                   saying "it worked when it shipped" and then
                   your ass collecting the insurance money
                   from the post office...
                   \_ That's lying. It's illegal (insurance fraud) and
2000/10/25 [Politics/Domestic/California, Recreation/Humor] UID:19561 Activity:nil
10/24   Vote:
        User Friendly:  ..
        Dilbert:        .
        \_ what are these two voting for the worst comic stip of the decade?
        Megatokyo:      .
        Crack-ho magzn: .
          (yermom, that is)
        Kevin and Kell ( .
        Blondie: .
2000/10/25-26 [Reference/Military] UID:19562 Activity:insanely high
10/25   "Anti-Gun People Suffer Mental Condition"
        You people know who you are.  Also, if anyone wants an introduction
        to shooting at the range so they can make informed decisions,
        mail me.  -jor
        \_ As I recall, the only people jor was arguing with
           were not endorsing banning guns, or even restricting
           their use... they were making fun of his nerdworld
           fantasy of protecting his homestead and democracy
           by himself with his little gun.
           \_ All researches have bias.  The point is, one should judge the
        \_ Wow, a press release pointing to <DEAD><DEAD> ("Jews for the
           Preservation of Firearms Ownership" -- check out their "Ask The
           Rabbi" column!)  *Obviously* no hidden agendas there.  Thanks for
           pointing us to these unbiased third-party researchers selflessly
           leading us to THE TRUTH!!!1!!
           \_ All researchers have bias.  The point is, one should judge the
              research just on it's veracity.
                           \_ The right to keep and bare arms is essential
                \_ exactly what information will "shooting at the range" give
                   us, when the problem is "shooting at the people"
                   \_ The idea is, once you get the feel of a finely
                      crafted firearm exploding powerfully under your control,
                      you wont want anyone taking it away from you.
                           \_ The right to keep and bear arms is essential
                               \_ and the right to bare legs is even more so.
                                   hint: grammarP
                                   \_ someone keeps changing it.
                              for the long term preservation of the republic.
                              The surest way to enslave the populace is to
                              disarm them.
                              A little hint to the anti-gun crowd. Banning
                              guns only hurts law abiding citizens, ie people
                              who obey the law. By definition criminals don't
                              obey the law. They will continue to have weapons,
                              and the common man will not be able to defend

                              \_ Not true in other countries - common
                           \_ You are a moron and a coward.  It amazes me that
                              you half-wits are always so down on people who
                              are obviously your intellectual betters just
                              because they don't hide it well enough. Tom is
                              easily one of the more intelligent people who
                              post to the motd and i'd rather read his troll
                              than anything you have to say, mr. "I'm not smart
                              enough to say something clever so i'll just delete
                              other people's post". -!tom
                                 criminals have difficulty obtaining guns.
                                 We are not talking about the mafia or
                                 triad, but the grocery store robbers.
                                 \_ That's because there isn't a huge SUPPLY.
                                    Why? Because there isnt any business drive
                                    to make guns in a place where owning one
                                    is very difficult to do legally.
                                 \_ You are wrong. It is extermely easy
                                    to get a gun via extra-legal channels.
                                    And let me put it to you this way,
                                    if all the guns where in the hands
                                    of organized crime, they would be the
                                    ones knocking down grocery stores
                                    that failed to pay "protection" fees.
                                    The "common" crook would not exist.
                                    I like my freedom and ill-informed
                                    bleeding hearts will not take it
                                    from me. Those who would trade freedom
                                    for security deserve neither.
                                    \_ I can just see you uttering "Freedom!"
                                       as your last word when your 10-year
                                       old kid shoot you with your .38
                                       thinking he was playing cowboy and

                                       \_ I don't own a gun, I don't have
                                          have kids and even if I did
                                          my kids would not be playing
                                          cowboys and injuns, because
                                          fighting is inappropriate for
                                          people from my caste.
                                          I chose to remain unarmed, but
                                          I should not be forced to be
                                          unarmed. A choice implies freedom,
                                          a ban is the absence of that
                                          freedom. To disarm the populace
                                          is to enslave them.
                                          \_ I disagree that banning gun
                                             is equivlanet to enslaving
                                             the people.  There are lots
                                             of free democratic countries
                                             where guns are banned.  Guns
                                             allow crooks to easily butcher,
                                             rape, rob, hold as hostage,
                                             enslave people from peace-
                                             loving castes like yours.  If
                                             a democratic country needs to
                                             have its populace to have guns to
                                             control its government, its
                                             political system / system of
                                             have its populace have guns in
                                             order to control its government,

                                             its political system / system of
                                             checks and balance must have
                                             really broken down.
                                             \_ When only the government and
                                                the criminals have guns how
                                                do you stop them from taking
                                                your rights away? Government
                                                is a necessary evil, but it
                                                should never be trusted to
                                                put the rights of the
                                                individual before the rights
                                                of the state. The right to
                                                keep and bear arms is the
                                                only way to ensure that our
                                                freedoms cannot be taken
                                                \_ I don't buy that having
                                                   guns available would make
                                                   a difference in controlling
                                                   government abuses in a
                                                   established democracy
                                                   like the US, with a
                                                   mature system of checks
                                                   and balances and a free

                                    \_ Organized crime is as bad or worse
                                       in the US than many countries where
                                       there is gun control.
                                       \_ Gun control only affects law
                                          abiding citizens, not criminals.
                                          Baning guns reduces freedoms
                                          and brings us all one step closer
                                          to enslavement at the hands of
                                          a few armed elitist. We must
                                          have the right to preserve our
                                          freedom by force.
                              A second hint, when the feds have all the guns
                              you will not be able to prevent them from taking
                              your property and your rights.
                              \_ We should require that guns be registered
                                 annually (like cars) or every two years.
                        \_ tom's opinion = troll. deleted.
                              \_ tom is an idiot, but a funny one. I think that
                                 his posts ought to remain uncensored simply for
                                 thier misguided humor content.
                                  \_ I find it amusing that this troll is
                                     not only deleting my posts, but the
                                     posts of people who agree with me, and
                                     entire threads that I participated in.
                                     No wonder he needs a gun--he's a complete
                                     coward.  -tom
                                     \_ Whether or not you are right (and I
                                        don't think that you are), he should
                                        not delete your posts.
                                        \_ sure he should.  tom is an idiot --
                                           and a fat-head to boot.
                                           \_ What harm can an idiot do?
2000/10/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others, Recreation/Media] UID:19563 Activity:high
10/25   What exactly is "B-Movie"?  Thx.
        \_ 2 interpretations: Budget Movie (low budget)
           or a movie they show for free when you see the A movie.
           \_ Sorry, what's "A movie" then?
                  \_ the movie you paid for (like when cartoons were free
                     because you paid for the main movie.)
                \_ a movie is a motion picture. duh.
           \_ The general usage (in the States) is "Shitty, low budget
              film".  A corrolary to that is the increasingly popular
              "DTV--Direct To Video".  --sowings
        \_ A very, very nice "new wave" band...sorta dark-sounding.
           Also, see the films of John Waters or Roger Corman,
           and maybe the live-action version of The Guyver.
           \_ McGuyver?
        \_ in some asian countries, A means Adult (porn)
            \_ I thought that was H as in Hentai, not A as in Adult.
               B doesn't have any significance (AFAIK), but R usually
               means Romance.
               \_ you mean it DOESNT mean "boobs"?
               \_ you would think this if you interpreted
                  "some asian countries" as only refering to japan
                  \_ Okay, I am a ignorant American, what countries
                     does this refer to?
                     \_ Japan, Indonesia and Pakistan only.
                        \_ India isn't a Asian country but Pakistan
                           is? Confirms what I knew all along, Indians
                           are really WHITE not ASIAN.
                           \_ Indians aren't white, they are Aryan /
                              indo-European (I think). In general, they
                              are quite dark.
2000/10/25-26 [Computer/SW/Apps, Computer/SW/Languages/Functional] UID:19564 Activity:high
10/25   Here is an interesting article about s/w. It goes against
        the typical silicon valley s/w mentality, and even some of
        the anti-female sentiment often shown on this motd:
        \_ "Yet everyone complains how bad software is, with all the
           defects." Everyone? I personally think that software quality
           has increased in the past 20 years. Look at the accomplishment
           we've made with OS, application, database, network, etc.
           \_ Okay: M$ Win*, M$ Excel/Word/PowerPoint, M$ Access/FoxPro,
              M$ TCP/IP & IE, etc.
              Things have become much worse.
        \_ "something wrong with the way its being written"
           If only writers had some process of their own.
        \_ You don't want to know how much this software probably costs.
           When there's no profit on the line then things are typically
           done well/right. Most software companies aren't about good
           software but about (duh) making a profit. --dim
           \_ And most software companies also have competitors, both for
              customers and for funding.
        \_ Yes, we're all familiar with slashdot, thanks.
        \_ I worked at NASA and yes there are people that write good
           code there but there is little innovation. The reason that
           it is reliable is because each change or improvement or
           idea has to get approved by ~ 50 people (and most ideas don't
           make it through the process). The atmosphere does appeal to
           a lot of mothers (mine included, AI research @ Ames 13 yrs)
           though. They like the slow non-aggressive work enviroment.
           Also efficiency isn't a top priority, many programs make
           the worst possible use of resources in order to ensure max.
           reliability. And this doesn't change even when you point out
           that the same thing can be done faster with equal reliability,
           because it would be "dangerous" to change it (the reality is
           that it would mean that some people would have to do work,
           which is avoided at all costs).
           \_ 1) resources aren't important.  In a situation like this
                 correctness is everything.  Resources are pretty damn
                 \_ You are wrong. Resources on the shuttle are exteremely
                    expensive. You can't just launch the latest 2GHz PV
                    Q3A/UT FRK proc into orbit. The computer systems on
                    the shuttle are quite slow and every cycle on them
                    is precious. If you can do something faster then it
                    worth doing, esp. if it is provable safe. Improvements
                    in operational efficiency translate to longer cheaper
                    missions. Ultimately someone has to pay for this and
                    that is the US tax payer, if this thing gets too damn
                    expensive it will stop flying, regardless of all that
                    science is great and wonderful and should be done
                    regarless of the cost bs that you see on Star Trek.
              2) if it works and is BugFree(tm) them changing it IS
                 dangerous.  It means you have to go make sure there are
                 no problems with the code and change it in the painstaking
                 process you described before (which yes may be painful
                 for someone used to coding in a more freeform style, but
                 let's face it, it does work for what they want).
                 \_ The problem is not that it is dangerous to change
                    and test it, the problem is that beuracrats don't
                    like change because that means they have to do work
                    and they hate doing work. Nasa is run by inertia,
                    a body at rest remains at rest unless otherwise
                    compelled by an external force. And that external
                    force needs to be pretty damn strong. The reason
                    that there are so many women there is that they
                    like the fact that most of the time there is nothing
                    to do and when asked to do something they can just
                    say that it would take too long.
                    \_ It's all about risk versus gain. Change for the
                       sake of change is not wise in such an environment.
                       Further, even the smallest change can be *very*
                       expensive considering all the testing and validation
                       that must be redone. When there's sometimes code
                       that's been around for 30 years and consists of
                       millions of lines you can see why people are loathe
        \_ It's a four-year old article.
                       to change it unless there are requirements to do
                       so. It's not sloth. --dim
                       \_ @ Ames its sloth. I routinely got, yeah we could
                          change it or we could fix it, but I don't feel
                          like it, I just want to surf the web and go home.
                          We could maybe do it next month.
                          \_ change it != fix it != optimize it
                             \_ In the context of the code I was dealing
                                with change|fix == optimize, basically
                                most of the stuff ran slow and no one
                                wanted to even clean it up, because that
                                would get in the way of putting in a solid
                                7 hrs (they always take min 1 hr lunch) of
                                playing solitare or bz or web surfing.
           The people described in this article probably also write in
           \_ until recently (not sure how the advent of RTOS's affect this)
              all FAA certified software for ATC was exclusively hand coded
              and verfied assembly code.
              \_ At Nasa, the shuttle guys were ADA, the aeronautics guys
                 were FORTRAN and the AI guys were Lisp.
                 \_its amazing the thing ever got off the ground.
                   \_ well it was only 10 yrs late and over budget.
        \_ It's a four-year-old article.
2000/10/25-26 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/SW/Security] UID:19565 Activity:moderate
        \_ Now why don't they have something like predicateRaider?  Now
           that might hold my attention.
                \_ is that like ContextFreeGrammarRaider and LR1Raider??
                   \_ woo woo!
           \_ How about corporateRaider? That would be *interesting*.
        \_ almost related:
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:October:25 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>