9/4     Has anyone here played with commercial security monitoring/scanning
        apps?  I'm looking at Eeye, ISS, and Axent NetRecon for host-based
        monitoring and host/network scanning, and Cisco Netranger/NFR/
        Netprowler/Eeye for IDS--I'd appreciate any experiences people would
        care to share about any of these.  -John
                \- the all suck to various degrees. the people who want to
                sell you stuff worry more about "sexy features" like drawing
                useless graphs and html reports rather than working on actually
                hard problems. they may be ok for MIS-types but hackers should
                use bro. also, what speed are you monitoring? unclear who
                can keep up with 100mbit full duplex. --psb
                \_ It's more a matter of being able to show due diligence
                   to govt. and investment inspector types who bring along
                   their pet MIS guy and who may have heard this or that about
                   commercial implementations.  I see the limitations of
                   most commercial products I've looked at, but I need to
                   find the "least worst" in addition to whatever "real"
                   IDS and system/network hardening I'm doing.  -John

9/4     Got to lick BUSH and DICK in 2000
        \_ Oh now I get it.

9/4     Is there a way to get pine's news reader to do threaded listings?
        I've used trn et al but I'm hoping to do this w/ pine.
        \_ Use slrn; it's a lot like mutt (vice-versa is more accurate, but
           mutt is more popular)  Oh.. you don't use mutt.  Switch from pine
           to mutt, it's faster and more powerful.  You don't have enough
           clue to do so?  http://www.mutt.org and read the documentation.
           Still don't get it.. wow.. that's like... not my problem.
           \_ Oh?  Are you a moron?  I'm a moron?  Why thank you.