Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:August:22 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2000/8/22-23 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/SW/Languages/Functional] UID:19058 Activity:high 62%like:19071
8/21    Wanna teach programming language to my cousin (10 year old). Should
        I teach LISP or Java first? Also, is it advisable to teach more than
        one language at a time?
        \_ http://www.toontalk.com  -mogul
        \_ Get a Mac, have 'em try HyperCard. When they get bored with that,
           Pascal. I tried this, and it was fun -brg
           \_ I would say the cool stuff for 10 yr olds is Perl cgi. They
              can write stuff that other people can look at over the web.
                \_ I concur.  -tom
                   \_ i VIOLENTLY DISAGREE. There is enoguh disgusting
                      perl out there, without another 10yearold with
                      no programming experience adding to the mess.
                      Teach them how to program PROPERLY first.
                      \_ i VIOLENTLY ABSTAIN.
                      \_ Teach a 10 yr old to enjoy programming and
                         they will learn good programming over the
                         course of a career.
                         \_ Which is why there's so much crap code out there
                            right now.  No.  You're wrong.  Programming
                            properly requires discipline and being told how.
                            You don't magically become good at something just
                            because you like it and do it for money.
              \_ Don't confuse what's "formally" there with what the language was
                 built for. If you think the CLOS is intuitive to the average
                 10-year-old (relative to Java, that is), you need serious help.
                 All alternatives to CLOS that I've seen are no better. Think
                 Intuitiveness.
                            \_ I did it for the sex appeal, and have since
                               become a great programmer. (Only the elegance
                               of my code can now approach my attractiveness.)
           \_ I agree with brg on this one.  A great many of the people I
              know that have a love of computer science started with HyperCard.
              I've also seen a correlation between having clue now, and using
              HyperCard when young.  Obviously I'm not implying that HyperCard
              bestows clue and a love of CS.  More likely, it offers a fun
              love of computer science as a discipline
              way for people to learn a programming mindset. -dans
                 \_ Interesting observation, I started with hypercard and
                    I love CS. Before HC I had done logo and basic though.
                    The other possibilitiy is that I decided on CS since
                    my mom was CS also.
              \_ Shut up, dans.  You are an idiot.  Go away.  You are not
                 qualified to give advise on sneezing, let alone computer
                 science.
                 \_ Sod off.  And sign yer posts. -dans
        \_ learn a programming mindset in a fun
           love of computer science as a discipline [motd formatting god]
        \_ Python or pascal.
           \_ Lemme explain about python:  python is scripting
              (immediate feedback, no compile) very clean of syntax,
              and very powerful.  Its only annoyance is that it requires
              proper whitespacing, but it's good to learn proper indenting in
              a first language anyway.  If you don't know python, learn it
              THEN teach it to your cousin.
              \_ Python is Perl's poor cousin. Python is still longing
                 to be what Perl was back in version 3.0
                 \_ But it does *look* nicer on a printed page.  :-)
        \_ korn shell
           I'm NOT KIDDING!!! It's simple to start, but has a LOT of
           features. Functions, vars, lots of optional odd tricks.
           \_ David Korn is a prick, I refuse to use his shell. Either
              Bourne shell or BASH.
              \_ so is RMS. So do you refuse to use gcc, emacs, or any
                 other of his stuff?
                 \_ RMS isn't as much of a prick as DK. DK's great
                    contribution was /bin/ksh and he goes around
                    like he invented computing (just like Al Bore
                    invented the internet). Without K&R,SRB,KT,BJ
                    DK wouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans.
                    The other thing is that he's also in bed with
                    M$.
                        \_ So what?  If the technology is good, use it.  Do
                           you not surf websites backed by Oracle because Larry
                           Ellison is a prick too?  You're being an idiot.
                           \_ I don't use ksh mostly because there are just
                              so many other better alternatives. The fact
                              that DK is a prick doesn't make me want to
                              use it either.
                              \_ name 3, "so many others".
                                 Perl is great if you want to
                                 access a database or do network stuff,
                                 but otherwise it's mostly overkill.
                                 \_ Bourne Shell, BASH, Perl, Awk, Sed,
                                    C, C++, TCL/TK, Java, Fortran, PL/1,
                                    ALGOL, Basic, even DOSHELL! Ksh is
                                    just a copy of SRB and BJ's work.
        \_ Java is probably better; LISP may be best for a CS student to start
           from, but it doesn't yield "pretty" results immediately. OOP has
           a more tangible link to the real world (ie "objects and their
           interaction"). More than one language at a time should be absolutely
           out of the question. You will confuse the fuck out him/her.
           \_ LISP is object oriented, and in fact had objects before Java.
              At any rate, most modern languages provide a way to program with
              objects or object like entities (with the only 2 notable
              exceptions being C, which is too low level to have objects as
              anything else but gobs of memory, and prolog, which can be
              used to implement any object system of your choice trivially).
              \_ Don't confuse what's "formally" there with what the language
                 was built for. If you think the CLOS is intuitive to the
                 average 10-year-old (relative to Java, that is), you need
                 serious help.  All alternatives to CLOS that I've seen are
                 no better. Think Intuitiveness.
                 \_ C-like syntax isn't intuitive.  In actuality, scheme's
                    syntax is far cleaner, and CLOS is a far better object
                    system than java's if for no other reason than because
                    classes are first class objects themselves.  Want to teach
                    java's alternative (reflection) to a newbie?  And drop this
                    lecturing tone, you haven't gotten enough clue to assume it
                    yet.
                    \_ Listen buddy. I've probably taught Java to more
                       10-year-olds than you've met in your life. And I've
                       tried the alternatives. If you don't believe what I am
                       saying, go find a sample of a few 10-year-olds and see
                       how you fare with your lisp fantasies. I have the utmost
                       respect for {lisp,scheme,yermom}, but none of them are
                       suitable for 10-year-olds.
                       \_ Which alternatives have you tried?  See, friend,
                          you are something people in the know like to call
                          'Java-drone.'  Would you like to guess why?
                          \_ Read first before spewing garbage. I don't
                             endorse Java as The Best And Last Real Programming
                             Language. As a matter of fact, I think little to
                             none commercial-grade code should be in Java.
                             Getting 10-year-olds interested is an entirely
                             different story. As for the alternatives --
                             I've tried Scheme, C, BASIC several times, and
                             perl, lisp, linkway (bad hypercard clone),
                             turing, and some obscure ancient shit you've
                             never heard of a couple of times
              \_ What about my favorite language, assembly? *ducks*
                 \_ i learned to program in 6502 assembler when i was 10.
                    \_ m68k assembler @ age 12.
                        \_ 4004 at age 17.
                           \_ eniac circuit codes at age 5
                              \_ babbage gears @ age 4
                                 \_ trained the wet-nurse @ age 6 mos.
        \_ I think alot of people in our CS dept (well... at least Harvey
           and Clancy) would say to teach Logo with the intention of quickly
           transitioning to something more practical. I think Java would be
           a good start in that it is really powerful with all the hard stuff
           abstracted away... and thus can yield some rewarding results for
           a 10-year-old failry quickly.
           \_ If you want to hook someone on programming, you really cant
              beat "Hey, I make make funny colored shapes in 30 seconds".
              Logo rules for bringing them in.
              (then when they're hooked, we move them up to the heavier
               stuff. And THEN we start ch... Ummmm.. forget that last bit)
        \_ I'd suggest teaching Smalltalk. That's what it was made for,
           after all.
                \_ So what?  Doesn't mean it's any good for that.
                   \_ But it actually was a good teaching language. Supposedly
                      they were getting 9-12 year olds programming things like
                      paint programs pretty quickly with Smalltalk.
        \_ The first language I learned to program in was BASIC.  Even
           though I liked programming, BASIC was annoying because there
           were lots of strange syntax rules you had to remember.  Based
           on this experience I would recommend starting with a language
           that has a simple, clean, and consistent syntax.  LISP and Tcl
           are 2 good examples.  I've never used python, but I suspect that
           the idea of using white space to indicate scope is the kind of
           thing that would scar a young programmer for life.  As for C, C++
           and Java, all I can say is that if decent programmers find things
           like x <<= y ^ *x++ && 0x32 hard to undrstand, think how a kid
           would feel.  Good luck, and let us know how things go.  -emin
           \_ if you code like that that's YER fucking problem
2000/8/22 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:19059 Activity:high
8/21    Our wonderful BSD system has grep -A and -B to print the lines after
        and before the matched patter (e.g. grep -A 10 myheaderword *).
        Solaris seems to be missing this functionality.  How do i duplicate
        this functionality?
        \_ Get GNU grep from http://ftp.gnu.org; it builds on Solaris.
        \_ try load module greputils
2000/8/22 [Recreation/Dating] UID:19060 Activity:high
8/21    Does the word "buddy" have a heavier weight than "friend"? Can
        somebody list the hierarchy for buba, buddy, friend, and acquaintance?
        \_ I never use "buba" and "buddy".  Here is how I would rank the words
           I would actually use:  Lover > fuck-buddy > friend > acquaintance
        \_ yes
        \_ is it preceeded by "fuck-" or not?
2000/8/22 [Uncategorized] UID:19061 Activity:nil
8/21    I'm going to be looking for some short term consulting/contracting
        gigs RSN and I'm looking for some useful websites that have information
        about things like current market rates, contracts, not getting screwed
        insurance, personal 401ks, etc.  Any suggestions?
2000/8/22 [Uncategorized] UID:19062 Activity:nil
8/21    One day more...
        \_ Another day another destiny.
2000/8/22-23 [Uncategorized] UID:19063 Activity:moderate
8/21    Anybody know a good online store to buy modular phone jacks?  I need
        a modular "phone" jack that allows me to customize the face plate.
        Eg. two coax output, one RJ-45 and one RJ-11 all on one plate.  Thanks.
        \_ http://www.cablesnmor.com
           Recently bought 100 RJ-45 plugs for about $30 with shipping. 2
           days to deliver.
           \_ $11.95 (+salestax) @ Fry's (not www, but just for reference)
           \_ 100 for $11.95 (+tax) @ Fry's (not www, but just for reference)
        \_ home depot carries these. i bought six-socket and three-socket
           customizable plates, and a bunch of snap-in jacks to do my home
           wiring. --aaron
           \_ I have gone the same route. It's dead easy, they even come
              with a little punch-down tool to use.             -- Marco
2000/8/22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:19064 Activity:nil
8/21    csua Top 20 of 2882 Total Search Strings
        #1 491 5.34%    panties
                        \_ thank you lolly. we needed that traffic.
        #3 104 1.13%    catfight
        #8 44  0.48%    dork
2000/8/22-23 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:19065 Activity:moderate
8/22    Looking for studio in downtown San Jose.  anyone knows the average
        rent there?
        \_ Expect $1200-$1500/month
        \_ 1000000000000000000000/mo.

-/--    It wasn't here for very long before getting trunc'd, but for the person
        looking to teach programming to a 10-yr-old: http://www.toontalk.com
        "ToonTalk is a video game for making video games." -David Kahn, 10
        "It's an animated world where kids can make, run, debug, and trade
        programs."-Ken Kahn, David's dad and inventor of ToonTalk
        --mogul
        \_ C!  C is the STANDARD!  Programming language.
           \_ ANSI or K&R?
                \_ ISO/ANSI C99
2000/8/22-23 [Politics/Domestic/California, Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:19066 Activity:high
8/21    Don't you think an ex-USCA co-op resident, and better yet,
        current CSUA member, would make a passable Survivor contestant?
                                                        ^contestant^actor --psb
        \_ No.  I don't.  The first 2 losers kicked off the island were the
           only 2 bay area people.  Think about that.
        \_ What are you trying to say psb?
        \_ The coops were a ZOG survivor contest.  -John
        \_ ausman!  ausman!  ausman!  ausman!
           \_ I have never even seen this show before. Think I really ought
              to apply? -ausman
              \_ I can't think of anyone more perfect, Jim.
              \_ yes.  Next show is in January.  Everybody apply!
              inmates fight one another.  I think this has happened before.
                 \_ The show will become markedly stranger if we get 3+ sodans
                    on there. Let's go everyone, apply!!!
        \_ How much of a bribe would it take to say, the Chinese government,
           to have a deathmatch-oriented survivor.  "No games.  No rules.
           No mercy.", where the contestents are encouraged to knock each
           other off?
           \_ Get a job as a California prison guard, then make the
              inmates fight one another.  "deathmatch-oriented survivor"
              is played out everyday in the prisons.  Join the fun!
              \_ there is a new reality based show coming out called
                  jailbreak.  People become prisoners and try to break
                  out of prison.
              \_ CA penal system is a bit more organized than Survivor, eh?
                 They have gangs, or one-on-ones, or "group vs.
                 child molester" altercations, which arent really the same.
                 It ends up being bigger beats smaller. Plus, it's not co-ed.
              \_ well, the winners don't get a million dollars.
           \_ They would not allow that. The kidney trade is too lucrative
              to risk damaging the goods.
        \_ USCAers would not survive unless it was a contest to "make your
           own granola" or "score some drugs". CSUAers would never survive
           unless it was a "virtual survivor" where you are a character
           in a video game. Of course both would win if it was a "how long
           can I last without showering" contest.
           \_ you call that winning?
2000/8/22 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Editors/Vi] UID:19067 Activity:very high
8/22    Shouldn't we all just use view instead of vi to view/edit the motd?
        If I'm using view, other people can still open the motd and edit
        it, as can I. ---ranga
        \_ Use less or more to read the motd.
        \_ As the above says.  Why are you using an EDITOR to VIEW the motd?
           Does everything look like a nail to you or are you an emacs addict?
2000/8/22-24 [Computer/Networking] UID:19068 Activity:moderate
8/22    My CATV consists of two coax cable coming into one room in my house.
        I want to distribute that to every room in the house.  A friend of
        mine told me that doing a simple line split would degrade the signal.
        That I need to amplify it somehow.  Anybody know how this is done?
        Any box I can buy to accomplish this via "plug and play"?
        \_ Yes.  You call the cable company and pay them for the additional
           service.  If you can afford a house and cable, you can afford
           another $5/room/month for additional service instead of stealing
           it like a common street corner criminal.
           \_ If you knew how cable companies operate, you wouldn't
              have any moral problems with not paying extra money to them.
              \_ You sound like the stupid whining mp3 napster thieves.  If
                 you don't want to pay for the service a company is providing
                 at the rates they charge, then don't use the service or
                 product.  Theft can not be justified by saying the seller
                 or provider is some Big Evil Corporation.  You are a thief.
                 You are not in any way entitled to cable service at a lesser
                 rate than they charge the public at large.  Theft is theft.
        \_ Your local Radio Shack will have coax splitter/amplifiers.
           Depending on your cable company you may still need a cable box
           per TV.

-/--    It wasn't here for very long before getting trunc'd, but for the person
        looking to teach programming to a 10-yr-old: http://www.toontalk.com
        "ToonTalk is a video game for making video games." -David Kahn, 10
        "It's an animated world where kids can make, run, debug, and trade
        programs."-Ken Kahn, David's dad and inventor of ToonTalk
        --mogul
        \_ C!  C is the STANDARD!  Programming language.
           \_ ANSI or K&R?
                \_ ISO/ANSI C99
                \_ Any worth while compiler will deal properly with either
                   or a mix of the two in most cases.
              \_ MS C(#) - bg
2000/8/22-23 [Reference/BayArea, Computer/Networking] UID:19069 Activity:high
8/22    Silicon Valley == Santa Clara Valley.  However, when we say
        Silicon Valley, what are the border towns on the north, south,
        east and west?
        \_ I think there's no clear boundary, just like "Bay Area".
           \_ yep, generally San Jose/Santa Clara/Palo Alto, but as far
              north as San Mateo and parts of Alameda/Contra Costa
              north as parts of San Mateo/Alameda/Contra Costa counties,
              and as far south as Santa Cruz even.
              Some say Silicon Valley is not a place but a cultural mindset.
              It includes where Sun, HP, Cisco and Oracle are located.
                        \- it should be referred to as "the silicon valley".
                        leaving out the "the" isnt as bad as leaving out the
                        "the" in "the internet" but is bad --psb
                                \_ get a life.
                                \_ okay, i shall now call you "The psb"
           \_ well, I wouldn't consider SF part of Silicon Valley.
                \_ Others do.  Got the message?
                   \_ There was this trivia question on one of those
                      morning shows several years back (Today, I believe),
                      and they asked where SV was, and the answer was SF.
                      Apparently they got numerous angry calls so the next
                      day they retracted their answer.
        \_ Entertainment Alley == San Mateo
           Multimedia Gulch == SOMA
2000/8/22 [Uncategorized] UID:19070 Activity:nil
8/22    Is the radio telescope in the beginning of the movie "Contact" the very
        same one used in the SETI@home project?
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/21    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:August:22 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>