Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:April:05 Wednesday <Thursday>
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2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/Mail, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:17918 Activity:moderate
4/4     Sr. UNIX System Administrator job at Sendmail, Inc.  Email
        christine@sendmail.com if you're interested.
        \_ Why did the previous guy leave?
                \_ the perverse sex orgies, always with the perverse sex orgies!
                        \_ Say "Hi" to Mike Donnelly for me. -=Aubie
        \_ sexy christine, are you an HR? What are you?
2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/HW/Memory] UID:17919 Activity:high
4/4     JVM usually takes care of stack memory fragmentation right? (Sun's
                \_ Wrong.  You've confused stack & heap.
        JVM is mark&sweep with conservative compacting algorithm) What
        about compiled code? Let's say I have a C/C++ server running that
        keeps doing new+delete, some big, some small. Eventually, there will
        be a lot of fragmentation. What happens?
        \_ This depends on what your server is doing.  Depending on your memory
           allocation regime you may consider using a garbage collection
           library or implementing your own memory management layer.
        \_ C++ by default ends up fragging the heap.  In general, assuming
           you don't run forever, this isn't too bad a problem.  If the
           server is doing alloc/free's all the time and runs for a long time
           you should consider rolling your own memory allocator. - seidl
                \_ Yeah, it's like this: either you care a LOT about memory
                   performance, or you prefer to have ease of use.  If you
                   want ease of use you just alloc away and don't care.  If
                   you want performance you write your own allocator that
                   does exactly what you want.  In games we use a mixture
                   of these two things based on how frequently a particular
                   allocation is going to happen.  -blojo
                        \_ blojo, what game are you talking about? Solitaire?
                           \_ If yer gonna say something dumb at least sign
                              your name so I can laugh at you.  -blojo
                              \_ Yeah, you never say anything dumb, John.
                                \_ It helps if you can spell his name --oj
                                \_ When I say dumb things, i sign my name
                                   to them, dammit.   -blojo
2000/4/5 [Recreation/Food/Alcohol, Health/Disease/General] UID:17920 Activity:nil
4/4     http://www.milksucks.com/beersurvey.html
2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:17921 Activity:moderate
4/5     Let's say I have a big NT server running and I want my UNIX box
        to share the files. What do I have to install on my UNIX box?
        (kinda like reverse NFS)
        \_ samba (both client and server exists)
        \_ get your terminology straight. You want the UNIX box to
           ACCESS the files, not "share" them.
        \_ Well, first: you really _want_ to do it the other direction.
           If you can't then: installing samba will get you ftp-like
           access to those files.  If you want it to appear as a transparent,
           mountable filesystem, either run linux (which as an fs module
           for this), or use Sharity (Light or otherwise), which let's you
           fake samba mounts as NFS mounts: http://www.obdev.at/Products
           --dbushong
        \_ Sharity (ex-Rumba) or Sharity-light is a UNIX-based SMB client
           that'll mount Windows shares as UNIX filesystems. smbclient
           is another ftp-like program that comes with Samba, that lets
           you play with NT shares.  -John
                \_ typical UNIX biggot                  -bill gates #1 fan
                   \_ typical idiot who can't spell  --dbushong
2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/Languages/Web] UID:17922 Activity:nil
4/5     apache running on RedHat 6.1,  CGI works and i'm trying to get
        a personal user cgi-bin set up.  Put it in the CONF file exactly
        like the original CGI was set up, restarted httpd.  Doesn't work.
        i.e. when you attempt to access the cgi file it just pops up as text.
        The EXACT same file works in the regular cgi-bin. It is world r-x.
        (and directory is world x)  Help.
        \_ Is it the default configuration?  You probably need to turn on
           Options ExecCGI
           for the directory in question.  And there are ways to configure
           all files ending in .cgi to be considered cgi.  --oj
           \_ Yeah, the config entry is...
                <Directory /home/cricket/public_html/cricket>
                AllowOverride None
                Options ExecCGI
                </Directory>
              (Allowing all .cgi files seems like a security problem).
        \_ use suexec, don't just allow user CGI.  -tom
2000/4/5 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:17923 Activity:moderate
4/5     Previously motdites said "wait a few months to get an Athlon."
        Been too busy to keep up with the joneses. Why? THanks!!
        \_ The chipsets on the motherboards sucked.  A good one is out now
           (Via KX133).  To pick a good example, the new Asus K7V motherboard
           (NOT the K7M) uses this chipset to good effect.  --dbushong
           \_ Speaking of which, when is the next Athlon rev. expected?
              Worth waiting for? What about the "low end" Athlon?
           \_ Got a URL?  I was thinking of getting an Athlon and was told
              the same thing--I don't have much PC hardware fu.  -John
2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:17924 Activity:nil
4/5     "In response to today's ruling, Microsoft President and CEO Steve
        Ballmer said: "As Microsoft continues to innovate, we recognize
        that industry leadership brings both opportunities and
        responsibilities. Our mission and success has come from the
        incredible benefits that Microsoft and Windows creates for
        consumers and for thousands of other companies, while operating
        our company based on a set of values that include integrity,
        innovation, customer-focus, partnership with a wide range of
        companies, an entrepreneurial culture, encouraging and supporting
        our people, promoting a diverse workplace, and giving back to the
        community."
        \_ so they are going to play the "squish us, and you squish the
           industry and lots of economy, and oh, BTW - it's an election
           year..."
        Also, from CNN:
        "However, Jackson did not agree with the government's allegations
        that Microsoft's marketing arrangements with other companies
        constituted unlawful exclusive dealing under the law."
        \_ so what else is there?  They used uncompetitive tactics in
           the browser wars?  Oops, but that fight is over.  Oh well.
           Whose wrist should be slapped?
          \_ Read the conclusions.  Just because they had arrangements
             with ISP's and OEM's to prefer IE, doesn't mean it was
             "exclusive dealing" under the law, because it was still
             possible to get Netscape through other means (over the web). --oj
        \_ They claim they are being responsible to the society?  What?  They
           think they are IBM or Xerox?
2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/Compilers, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:17925 Activity:nil
4/4     Is there a unix tool that will go through annoying text files
        recently edited by an MSDOS based editor and eliminate all those
        extraneous ^M characters? The compiler I'm using seems to hate them.
        \_ /usr/local/bin/fromdos
        \_ tr -d '\015'
        \_ Do the Ctrl-M's say "Controlled by Microsoft?"
        \_ My favorite is: perl -pi -e 's/\r\n?/\n/g' filename
           as this will convert both DOS and Mac linefeed formats
           to UNIX  --dbushong
2000/4/5 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:17926 Activity:high
4/3     RAID 3 or RAID 5 for an NFS server supporting a small workgroup?
        Files can be large (100's of MB but less than 1 GB) and users will
        have the ability to write locally to the RAID (as well as through
        NFS). Just to be clear, the machine will support typical user
        activities as well as serve the large files. Lots of reading and
        writing both small and large files. Benchmarking using iozone
        is inconclusive. I am leaning towards RAID 3, though. This is a Solaris
        Enterprise-class server. Anyone have any real-world experience
        with which yields better performance? Thanks. --dim
        \_ Idiot. There are probably hundreds of papers on this, online,
           yet you ask onthe motd. Then ignore the BEST advice, which is
           to scrap both of them and use 1+0.
           RAID3 can be faster, but performs worse in degraded mode,or
           something like that.
        \_ What class server?  It kind of depends, since if you have something
           like a 4500 available, you're not going to notice any performance
           impact for most things a "small workgroup" will be able to do.
           Also, you'll want to know how much i/o your disks (array?
           internal?  SCSI?  Fiber?) can handle at any given time, since if
           you're doing a lot of moving stuff around, your bus may choke
           before you need to start worrying about RAID performance.  Also
           maybe play with different stripe sizes.  I'd tend to RAID5, just
           because I've had too many disks puke on me, and because I
           usually don't need to do a lot of writes, assuming you can't do
           0+1.  -John
           \_ Oh yeah, if you run Veritas, version 3 can do 1+0, which is
              pretty spiffy.  -John
        \_ They both suck.  Use 0+1, disk is cheap.  -tom
                \_ tom is right.  Unless your RAID 5 is hardware RAID 5
                   with a serious RAM buffer, your performance will lag.
                   Test it yourself by making a RAID 5 partition and 0+1
                   on the same machine, and do some benchmarks.  Here's
                   some numbers to give you a feel:
                   time mkfile 1024M test
                   Raid 0+1 Ultra 450 2 X 296 MHz:
                    0.0u 21.0s 0:52 39% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w
                   NO Raid, Single disk, Ultra 450 2 X 296 MHz:
                    0.0u 17.0s 1:28 19% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w
                   Hardware Raid 5 Ultra 2 2 X 296 MHz:
                    0.0u 18.0s 1:37 18% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w
                   Software Raid 5 Sparc 20:
                    3.0u 158.0s 19:13 13% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w
                           (One of the twinks out here is using this as a home
                            directory server for the whole department and
                            can't figure out why everyone is complaining
                            that things are slow)  -ax
                   \_ not that I dont agree that sw RAID 5 can be hazardous
                      to  Sysadmin health, but is it appropriate to compare
                      software RAID 5 on a sparc20 running at what, 150MHz
                      max, versus dual ultra hardware RAID 5 , stripe/mirror
                      or simple filesystems?  --Jon
                   \_ Thanks for the ideas, guys. I hadn't thought of
                      comparing to 1/0 numbers, so I configured that way
                      also. This is an E450 4x400 MHz running a SUN
                      StoreEdge RAID (hardware RAID). The disks are 18 GB
                      Fujitsu's (SUN OEM). RAID 3 beat even RAID 1/0 in
                      many benchmarks on this system. Even when not, the
                      differences weren't much. --dim
                      \_ raid levels have different performance characteristics
                         for different workloads --jon
                         \_ 0 - normal
                            1 - nothing gained from mirroring
                            2 - does this even exist?
                            3 - higher handwidth
                            4 - does this either?
                                \_ Yes, NetApps use RAID-4, but most other
                                   systems skip straight to RAID-5.
                            5 - lower average latency
                            6 - obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about
                                but I was smoking pot and felt compelled to
                   \_ DON'T FORGET. MICROSOFT INVENTED RAID SO IT MUST BE GOOD.
                      \_ I thought Al Gore did.
                        \_ you know al gore NEVER said he invented the
                           internet.
                           \_ Oops, I meant created: "During my service in the
                              United States Congress, I took the initiative in
                              creating the Internet."
                              \_ THIS MAN WANTS TO BE OUR PRESIDENT.  RUN FOR
                                 YOUR LIVES!
                                        \_ Actually yes. Al Bore isn't as
                                           smart as Bill C. His wacko ideas
                                           about the environment will derail
                                           progress and prosperity in this
                                           country and throughout the world.
                                           His weak foreign policy will allow
                                           RED CHINA to attack/seize Taiwan
                                           resulting in the unnessary loss of
                                           life of the Taiwanese people. We
                                           also won't get involved until its
                                           too late and will probably lose the
                                           first few encounters resulting in
                                           the loss of American Lives. GW isn't
                                           great (I voted for McCain), but
                                           he's not a kook like Bore.
                                           \_ people still say things like
                                              Red China?  Didn't that go out
                                              with the 60s?  Let me guess,
                                              you are Taiwanese?
                                 \_ got coke?  -gwbush
                         \_ NO, MICROSOFT INVENTED EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE
                            INTERNET.  MICROSOFT IS PROMOTING INOVATION.
                            \_ Indeed.  TCP/IP is listed as a Microsoft
                               protocol in Win95/8.
                                \_ Where are they gonna put it? Banyan,
                                   "Da Internet", Bill Joy? It's their stack.
                                \_ Al Bore invented M$. His daughter still
                                   works there.
                   \_ real world experience shows that people who think
                      that their one answer is the answer to everything
                      get fired in less than 10 years.
                \_ who wants to work for a company that forces you to choose
                   between unattractive options?  -tom
                    \_ I refuse to believe tom is this annoying. Stop
                        your odious mocking. -tom #1 disillusioned fan
                   \_ you must learn to think OUTSIDE THE BOX!
                      \_ are you in IDS 130?
                                say something.
           \_ Thanks, but it's not an option. Neither is a NetApp. I
              appreciate the help, but I'd like to stay within the parameters
              I laid out.--dim
                \_ Well, both your options suck.  Real-world experience
                   is that it's a waste of time trying to help people choose
                   between two bad options.  -tom
2000/4/5 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:17927 Activity:nil
4/3     A friend of mine is interviewing for a QA job at a software
        company soon.  Any ideas on what kind of questions she will
        get asked?  The company she is interviewing at does a lot of
        work with Orcale databases.  Thanks.
        \_ She might be asked "What is an Orcale database?"
           \_ It's like an Oracle database, but with a spell checker.
        \_ how about, "do you mind not doing jack shit much of the time
        but trying to look busy until a new build comes out, and then
        performing hours upon hours of monotonous tests?"
2000/4/5-6 [Computer/HW/Scanner, Industry/Startup] UID:17928 Activity:moderate
4/4     Does anyone have recommendations or experiences to share on
        document conversion from hard copy to pdf?  Specifically, any
        recommended company?
        \_ You mean Word document to pdf?
           \_ Paper to pdf.
              \_ Why don't you just create the document from scratch
                 and generate the PDF from there.  It'll be much easier
                 than trying to scan it and get it to PDF (I don't even
                 know if that exists).  Or you can always do what that
                 dude who scanned tjb's resume and converted to PDF did
                 but then you get a giant bitmap stored in PDF format
                 which is a pretty stupid idea if you ask me.
                 \_ Would do that, except that it is high volume.
                    It would take a long time to do all of them.
         \_ Good scanner, good OCR program, good word processor,
            import into Acrobat.  -John
        \_ http://www.cardiff.com - haven't used them, but they have a lot of
           cool (expensive) shit.
2000/4/5-7 [Transportation/Car] UID:17929 Activity:high
4/5     Discount gas vs. Brand Name gas question. (Original question was deleted
        by a careless motd poster).
        \_ The big oil refinieries auction their excess supplies and smaller
           vendors like RR or Costco buy it at these auctions. This is the
           same gas (octane and all) as the big companies. The only thing
           that you have to watch out for is that some of these smaller
           vendors add more cleaners to thier gas, thus you think that you
           are getting more gallons of gas for a cheaper price, but in
           reality you are not getting as much gas.
           \_ What exactly does "add more cleaners" mean?  Are they adding MTBE
              or what?  Will the cleaners damage the car's engine?  Rotten
              Robbie's 92 octane around my area is about $1.99.  Cheaper than
              the crazy $2.15 that I've seen in some Chevrons.
                \_ I don't know what the percentage of cleaner to gasoline
                   is now, but it used to be something like 10/90 at most
                   brand name stations (shell,chevron,exxon), 15/85 at
                   BP/Mobil/76, 20/80 at Arco and 30/70 at RR. Don't know
                   \_ Do you have the source for these numbers?
                        \_ Yeah, the numbers sound bullshit to me too...
                           Gasoline in California is very tightly regulated,
                           and it's very unlikely that you can have 20% more
                           "cleaner" in it.  If what the anon poster meant
                        \_ but isn't it funny that gas with more detergent
                           was MTBE (which is not a cleaner at all), then
                           the limit is 15%.  --nevman
                        \_ The numbers aren't exact, but I got them from my
                           Chem TA several years ago (graduated 97). They
                           Chem TA (blacklightning may still carry the lec.
                           I don't believe it though. I usually get gas at the
                           service station nearest to my house which happens
                           to be a 76.
                           notes) several years ago (graduated 97). They
                           might be bs since this guy was a RIDE BIKE!r.
                           Just as a side note, I don't believe any of this.
                           I usually get gas at the service station nearest
                           to my house which happens to be a 76. I used to
                           get arco all the time for my Corolla since thier
                           89 octane was much cheaper than the others. I
                           now need to get 92 octance for my Lincoln and
                           all of the places around my home (w. sj) are
                           about $2.05 - $2.07 so it doesn't make much
                           difference.
                   about Costco. I don't think that the cleaner damages your
                   car (my dad says that it damages the fuel injector, but
                   I haven't seen that in my corolla with ~ 50K miles, YMMV).
                   You just have to be comforatble getting less gas for your
                   $s.
                        \_ but isn't it funny how gas with more detergent
                           in it essentially is sold as higher class gasoline?
                           "People think they're buying chivas regal for
                           their cars"  Now with MORON, NEW SUPER
                           PREMIUM UNLEADED"  -tpc
                                \_ Some car companies will refuse to honor
                                   the warantee if you use a gas of a lower
                                   octane than the recommended. If you
                                   bought a MB,Cad.,Linc.,BMW,Jag. buying
                                   92 instead of 89 octane shouldn't make
                                   a big difference to you monetarily. If
                                   you need to buy cheap gas in order to
                                   save money cause your car cost too much
                                   you should have bought a cheaper/more
                                   affordable car and you should get a CLUE!
           \_ Hm. I've been getting a lot of gas recently. How would I
              go about auctioning THAT off?
              \_ Let me know if you find any buyers.  I've plenty.
                 \_ If you're going to parrot a joke, at least do a good one.
              \_ http://www.priceline.com is going to add gas to its list of things
                 that you can buy from them.
2000/4/5-6 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Editors/Vi] UID:17930 Activity:very high
4/5     I want to improve my C coding skill. Would it help my
        understanding to read the spec or is there something better to
        increase my understanding and use of C?
        \_ download the cs61c assignments and do them.
        \_ practice with it and give yourself projects to motivate you to
           learn.
        \_ Take 164, 170, 172, 174. Read the Art of Computer Programming.
           A good algorithm will beat any C and compiler optimizer trick.
           You can hiring a lot of people and a lot of cheap hardware
           to make things run fast, or you can hire one Phd. Take your pick.
                                                        \_ academia sux0r!
           \_ Dude.  A good bachelors is a better coder than most CS PhDs
              from Berkeley I know.  The strength of a PhD is not in their
              coding skill.
                \_ Agreed. BS and MS guys are much better coders than PHDs.
                   Some PHDs are good designers, but some just have thier
                   head up thier ass since they haven't every had to get
                   anything to work with a deadline/customer on the phone.
        \_ Use 4 spaces (or tabs) to align code properly.
           Use carriage returns before and after brackets.
           Be consistent with other white-space use (parentheses).
           Now even if you do write crappy code, others will be able to
           identify the crap quickly.
           \_ the use of spaces (instead of tabs) is bad.  Recommend using
              tabs to indent.  8 is more standard than 4, but yes, 4
              looks better.
              \_ Use Of Spaces Instead Of Tabs Considered Harmful.
              \_ Oh..... how I *DESPISE* how some code editors represent tabs
                 as 4 spaces in the default setting.  Tabs are goddamn 8
                 spaces.
              \_ Why?  Because they take more bytes to store?  With disk prices
                 these days is that really a concern?  Can any editor not handle
                 the spaces?  Hell, at least everyone sees it formatted the
                 same.  You have a problem with maintainable code?
                 \_ imagine an environment where people use MS Visual C++,
                    vi, emacs, notepad, etc.  Each one treats tab a certain
                               \_ notepad always treats tabs as 8 chars,
                                  and god forbid i look up the tab spacing
                                  command in vi
                    way.  Its easy to use across different editors. Also,
                    emacs, for example, has a special mode which works
                    very well with tabs.  See C-Mode in emacs.
                    \_ The fact that each one treats tab (sic) a certain
                       (and different) way is why spaces are better.
                    \_ Are you arguing for or against tabs?
                        \_ for tabs
                    \_ All my editors handle spaces/tabs as whitespace for
                       indenting/hilighting, etc.  Of course, I don't use emacs.
                       This just seems like a cry not to break your .emacs --
                       sorry but not all of us use emacs.
                        \_ I believe if you looked through industry code
                           most use tabs.  And most of those coders were
                           probably not emacs users.
                           \_ Uh, I am in industry.  And many people I know have
                              agreed with me on this one.  Hence many uses
                              spaces instead of tabs.
                                \_ Industry is mostly divided between vi and
                                   emacs, with some companies favoring one
                                   more than the other. At Sun I heard its
                                   mostly vi, while at Cisco (from experience)
                                   its recommended that you use emacs (lots
                                   of homegrown lisp for development).
          \_ Just use C-Mode in emacs. It does all the indenting correctly,
             and you can easily tell when one of those vi lusers edits your
             source files since the indenting will be off.
             \_ .emacsrc foo required?
          \_ Reading through K&R is worthwhile, but nothing beats writing lots
             of code. -dans
          \_ "Deep C Secrets: Expert C Programming" is a much more useful book
             to read than the spec.  (And I recommended it even before I worked
             for one of the companies involved in publishing it.)  -alan-
                \_ This is an excellent book and should be required
                   reading for everyone who is programming professionally.
                   It also helps your fu!
        \_ you can't improve your C coding skill without understanding the
           big picture. A thorough understanding of machine architecture
           compiler, OS, networking, math, and most importantly theory is
           required. Being a good programmer is more than just reading
           "Learning C in 21 Days." If you want to be a good programmer,
           go to a community college. If you want to be a good computer
           scientist, go to Berkeley.
                \_ FUCK YOU! i learned perl in 21 days and i'm making
                   $80K/year and that's probably more than what you're
                   making as an academic sux0r
                   \_ You seem rather pissed off in spite of your $80K/year.
                      -dans
2000/4/5-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/TJB] UID:17931 Activity:very high
4/5     Tales of tjb:
        http://hotzp.com/badboys/archives/021900.html
        \_ This is not an accurate depeiction. TJB doesn't have other CS
           friends to sit with in class.
           \_ This is an accurate depeiction of tjb:
               http://images.slashdot.org/topics/topicms.gif
        \_ Also, he attends class rarely, mocks professors on sex habits, not
           grooming habits, and rarely mocks classmates (except when provoked).
           Plus he doesn't get the best grades.
        \_ I've read through a bunch of the archives, and, frankly BBoCS just
           isn't funny. -dans
2000/4/5-6 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:17932 Activity:low
4/5     Are there real DBAs using Oracle Enterprise Manager? Or is that
        just a marketing scheme?
2000/4/5-6 [Uncategorized] UID:17933 Activity:low
4/5     Bravo's been running Last Temptation of Jesus Christ. Scorcese Rocks.
        \_ Yeah.  it's kind of neat watching a film with absolutely no
           CG in it.  All script, scenery, and imagination.
           \_ Free your mind.
              \_ sell your soul.
2000/4/5-7 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:17934 Activity:high
4/5     want my old pentium 166?  has disk drive, keyboard, mouse, OS - danh
        \_ I ll take it if it's free. -- ilyas
                \_ tell us of emergent behaviorsss - the stars
        \_ turn it into a MP3 jukebox.
        \_ I am nearly deaf and listen only to Martika.
        \_ Donate it to soda/csua.
        \_ jj could use it.
        \_ I will either donate it to an elementary school when
           a certain soda person coughs up the phone number, or I will
           give it to someone without a computer.
2000/4/5-6 [Uncategorized] UID:17935 Activity:low
4/5     Free Pizza (well sort of...) IS&T is running a couple of focus
        groups next week and we'll feed you if you come.  See
        ~icrew/ist_focus_group.txt for complete details.  -icrew
2000/4/5-6 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:17936 Activity:insanely high
4/5     In C/C++, how do you implement "ls" type of functionality without
        using a "system" call?  Where can I get the source code for "ls"?
                                \_ http://ftp.gnu.org, <DEAD>ftp.freebsd.org<DEAD>,
                                   http://ftp.redhat.com, and fifty million others
        \_ Your implementation of a directory/folder is system-dependent.  Hence
           you need to use system calls.
        \_ Okay, found something for WinNT: findfirst, findnext using io.h
        \_ POSIX/UNIX: opendir/readdir/closedir.  Other OS'es: see your OS'es
           API docs.
           \_ thanks.  but what a pain.  why can't someone put a layer on
              top of that and make it more portable across various OS's.
                \_ Sun did.  It's called "Java".
                   \_ this is a stupid answer. POSIX api *is* supposed to be
                      the multiplatform solution. opendir/readdir/closedir
                      are very much multiplatform and are definitely not UNIX
                      only. if your OS doesn't support it, looking for YET
                      another "standard" library is asking for lack of
                      portability. -ali.
                                \_ Java is better than POSIX. POSIX
                                   compliance is limited mostly to UNIX
                                   systems (and WinNT) while Java is
                                   usable on Mac,Win*,*nix and others.
                                   And once you compile your java files
                                   into classfiles you can give them
                                   to someone on a different platform
                                   and they can run it without needing
                                   to recompile.
                        \_ Use ACE! It works everywhere and does everything.
                           ACE will rule the world! ACE ED will be the standard
                           editor/library/os/everthing.
                   \_ Fuck Java, use Perl!
                        \_ Java has real OO, not some stupid hack like
                           in Perl! We should ditch Perl5 and go back to
                           Perl4. If you need OO, then use Java. Also
                           if your are doing web stuff that accesses
                              It's also
                              a royal pain to set up with any real webserver.
                           ldap servers or db servers Java (servlets)
                           are much better than Perl cgi. And don't give
                           me that crap about fast cgi or mod_perl. There
                           are several problems with reusing server
                           connections.
                           \_ OO is a style of programming that need not be
                              supported by language constructs.
                           \_ Uh.. crack.  Have you actually looked at the
                              performance numbers for mod_perl vs. java
                              servlets?  Java loses.  Heavily.
                              \_ URL?
                             \_ http://www.chamas.com/bench/hello_bysystem.html
                                --dbushong
                                It's also a royal pain to set up with any
                                real webserver.
                                \_ This page is bs and it even states that:
                                   "These benchmarks do not represent real
                                    world scenarios."
                                    Perl is faster for simple form processing
                                    and basic text output. But how many cgi's
                                    do that anymore. Most are wrappers for
                                    accessing services like a db or ldap or
                                    corba or a tib. Perl loses here.
                                    Benchmark a java servlet that does jdbc
                                    odbc access using a connection pool
                                    against a perl cgi that needs to open
                                    a db connection every time it is invoked.
                                    Java beats the pants off of perl for
                                    most transactions. Same for LDAP. I
                                    know that Java is better since I worked
                                    to convert a large perl cgi based product
                                    (worked on the perl cgi's in the original
                                    version) to java servlets for Cisco and
                                    we got ~ 1.5 to 2x improvement on the
                                    server side performance. Setting up JRun
                                    or Appache JServe isn't that hard. If you
                                    think JRun's setup is hard your admin fu
                                    is really weak. The most recent versions
                                    required only 5 lines in httpd.conf.
                                    \_ JRun is an utter piece of shit.  I
                                       had to restart it once a day when
                                       it barfed all over itself.
                                        \_ I haven't had this problem for the
                                           last few versions. But I'm using
                                           JServe now since I don't like
                                           Alaire's upgrade policy regarding
                                           old Live cust. They asked me to
                                           pay full price for the latest vers.
                                       mod_perl does not need to open new
                                       database connections every time;
                                       that's what Apache::DBI is all about.
                                       And saying you got a performance
                                       improvment over "perl cgi" is idiotic.
                                       Of course you did, the compile/exec
                                       penalty on non-mod_perl is lethal.
                                       \_ We were using mod_perl, but Apache::DBI
                                          wasn't stable enough for our needs.
             \_ POSIX API exists for most OS's.
             \_ Tcl/Tk also has platform independant APIs for this kind
                of thing.  I've used Tcl/Tk and I highly recommend it. -emin
                \_ Tcl/Tk is pretty junky compared to Perl. If you need
                   to use a scripting language use Perl or Bourne Shell.
                \_ there really is no point in doing Tcl in my opinion.
                   Instead you should use python. It's easier to learn,
                   it's easier to write wrappers for your C code in it,
                   it runs faster (actually, i don't know about tcl8.0),
                   and it's got builtin support for OO. -ali
                   \_ I checked out the python web page and it does seem
                      pretty nifty.  I'll try using it next time instead
                      of Tcl. Thanks. -emin
                        \_ Any language that uses white space for scope
                           is pretty junky. Next they will dictate the
                           columns that I can use. Fortran anyone?
                \_ tcl + python are academia languages and are USELESS
                   PERL R3WL$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/20    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2000:April:05 Wednesday <Thursday>