|
2000/2/11-13 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:17485 Activity:very high |
2/10 I get an impression that new grads coming out of berkeley don't have much exposure to C. I mean pure C, not C++. How do most people feel about this? I guess I'm asking alumni who are hiring and also current students. \_ I've spent the last year doing project in only C or Java, no C++. \_ they don't necessarily have much exposure to C++ either... \_ old grads are better than new grads. New grads are for the most part java weenies who bitch about assignments being "too hard." \_ No, new grads are pussies who call themselves EECS majors but wouldn't take a single EE class if it killed them. \_ That is so true. At least the Java portion. I've been going back to recruit for quite a number of years. Recently I've noticed that a lot of them don't know how to use malloc. My company does almost all straight C. No C++ and only a little Java. Looking at stacks of resumes of newgrads with Java experience has become rather tiresome. \_ Hey, I know C. Wanna give me a job? \_ Perhaps a one hour session about the differences between C++ and C is sufficient. \_ I wouldn't hire a Cal CS grad if I had another choice. Not a current/recent grad. I'd hire almost anyone who graduated from about 93 or so and earlier. \_ There's some truth to that. But you have to understand that only 90% of Cal CS grads are idiotic morons. The other 10% are worth looking at. \_ why do you say that? \_ I say that because the program has become even more worthless over the years than when I was here. Or maybe they're just dumbing it down to match the quality of the students. Either way, same result. \_ what other choice would you take instead of a cal grad? \_ Sigh. I said "93 or earlier". If I had a spot for some youngster to fill, I'd take the one who seemed to be the brightest and easiest to get along with, no matter what degree they had or where from. \_ Compared to the other grads out there, Cal CS grads aren't half bad. \_ I agree. You could do a lot worse. A lot of Cal State schools were teaching in Ada as recently as 1996 (the last time I worked with someone attending such a school). There are probably better programs, but Cal's is one of the better ones. The rest depends upon the individual. You're just spoiled living in the Silicon Valley. You should see what they're dredging up in places like Virginia. --dim \_ Pfft. Don't bother going all the way to Virginia -- just go to a job fair at San Jose State! \_ What's bad about Ada? -- Ada illiterate \_ it's a pointless waste of time that no one uses, not even people like Hilfinger who helped develop it \_ We did some ADA in 60c with Hilfy. \_ I don't run my company's division by comparison. Excellence is an absolute. It's exactly that sort of half assed, two bit, slacker moron attitude that so pervades current educational 'thought' that makes me want to vomit and then just train kids fresh from any random high school instead. At least they'll know that they don't know anything unlike the current twit brigade churned out in droves today from places like Cal. \- just out of curiousity, why do you guys feel there is difference between a 1990 and 1995 grad? do you think the dept has made a change due to a faculty personnel change, or there has been differnt selection criteria for the students or was there a change of requirements to complete the major or what? --psb \_ Because *they* (the people asserting a difference) were students in 1990, but had graduated by 1995. Simple as that. "Kids these days . . . *I* had to walk UPHILL in the SNOW -- *BOTH WAYS*!!" \_ How do you walk uphill both ways? \_ Obviously you've never walked around Berkeley much \_ heh. \_ No, "*they*" graduated in 1987. Now go take your low grade promoting of the mediocre and "it's all relative" pseudo social promotion self esteem raising crap elsewhere. \_ I get the impression that it's also a case of the CS dept. being far more impacted than in 1990. Since there's a lot of money in IT in general, CS in school tends to attract a lot of people who're not in it for the fun so much as for the "glamour" and the cash. I think part of the underlying attitude is that in every field, someone who is fundamentally enthusiastic about it will probably be of higher professional value than someone who is able to survive a factory, correct me if I'm wrong. -John \_ I think this is entirely correct. The people who are in it for the love say "Cool, I get to learn C. Now I can hack on *fill in neat C-based open source project here*. The ones who are in it for the money say "I don't want to learn another language. I'm just going to do the project in Java.", or, if forced to work in something != Java, they do enough to simply eek by. Usually this consists of writing a flawed, buggy piece of code that may or may not work, begging someone with some C clue to help them debug their syntax errors, not even bothering to clean up programmitical and logic errors, and then begging for points because "We did a good write-up. It doesn't matter that the program doesn't actually run." Additionally, some of the more clued folks are more prone to hack code than worry about grades so, at least for L&S CS, some of them are being driven out by considerablly less competent but more grade-driven lamers. With this environment, it's not surprising that many of this type of clued individual is very tempted to drop out and work since so many companies are willing to take them, and the compensation is very nice. All that said, just because the lamers to clued folks ratio has grown doesn't mean its approaching infinity so don't jump to the conclusion that all current Cal CS grads suck. -dans \_ But you just said yourself that the better ones are likely to just quit school and take my job offer. \_ The problem with this is that without the degree there is no way to distinguish between someone who dropped/flunked out because they were too creative/talented/involved to be academically successful, and those who did so because they're just plain not real bright or motivated. -John \_ And with the degree you can distinguish the generally interviews at all. Generally. talent from the grade whores how exactly? \_ There is a very EASY WAY to distinguish, that almost noone does. Sit the applicant down in front of a computer, and say "here, write code to do this task". "here, write code to do this task". Of theory stated earlier about highing the bright HS course, this is only easy if you aren't a PhD that has no clue about programming. \_ That isn't clue. Any child can learn to code in a few weeks at most. Clue is about higher level stuff like choosing the right algorythm, data structures, language, and code/engineering principles of design. This is hardly any different from my half-serious emacs user was here that's it, no more motd go away cat /dev/null > /etc/motd.public emacs user was here theory stated earlier about hiring the bright HS kids and training them on site. I don't see much in your statement that promotes current CS grads. Grade whores? Who needs 'em. I never once asked an applicant what their grades were. The ones who put GPA on their resume in the 3.7+ range don't generally get interviews at all. Generally. \_ Actually, I'm inclined to believe your HS kids theory, but mostly because I believe kids are a lot smarter than they are credited with. I said that SOME of the better ones are LIKELY to quit school. This doesn't mean they all do. My goal was to point out that not ALL Cal CS grads suck. I agree that many do, but I didn't want to see it left as a blanket statement. I have no intention of promoting the large quantity of grade whores out there. I agree. Who needs 'em. But not all of us are grade whores. -dans \_ No problem. I did say "generally" a few times. I do understand the concept of unfairly labelling an entire group of people. I did go to Berkeley afterall. :) \_ c/lisp vs c++/java hacked interesting kernel or device driver code vs getting enlightenment to run on linux box at home motd police was here (watch out) |
2000/2/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:17486 Activity:moderate |
2/11 It's been some time since you've graced the motd with your genius, ilyas. Could you condescend to post some musings on a subject weighty to the motd? Please, ilyas, enrich us! --ilyas' #2 fan \_ ilyas numba two fan, numba one heeeepocrite! \_ I too was wondering what had become of Our Lord Of High Logic And All Things Correct True And Right. --ilyas #1 Fan |
2000/2/11 [Uncategorized] UID:17487 Activity:moderate |
2/11 What is ftpmail? \_ man ftpmail |
2000/2/11 [Uncategorized] UID:17488 Activity:nil |
2/10 _____ ____ _____ _____ ____ ____ _ ____ _ ____ __ | ___| _ \| ____| ____| / ___|| _ \ / \ | _ \| |/ /\ \ / / | |_ | |_) | _| | _| \___ \| |_) / _ \ | |_) | ' / \ V / | _| | _ <| |___| |___ ___) | __/ ___ \| _ <| . \ | | |_| |_| \_\_____|_____| |____/|_| /_/ \_\_| \_\_|\_\ |_| With 2 proofs of purchase. |
2000/2/11 [Uncategorized] UID:17489 Activity:nil |
2/11 Does anyone have a lego mindstorms set? Any thoughts on the merits of different development tools for them? |
2000/2/11-12 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:17490 Activity:high |
2/11 Where have all the good troller gone? I only see lame flamebaits and small-time trolls. We need some big time trollers to stir things up a bit. \_ uh, I guess this is a troll too? \_ it's a meta-troll. \_ The motd was over 470 lines, most of it trolling. What exactly qualifies in your book as a "good troll"? Once agin, the motd is not here for your amusement. If you want it to be amusing, you must make it so. Now go get a cookie. \_ the motd IS for my amusement you fool. \_ Then clearly it isn't satisfying your needs so you should fuck off and die. Thank you. |
2000/2/11-13 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:17491 Activity:low |
2/11 Are most upper division courses in CS in Java? Do they teach C++/C anymore? \_ Computer science isn't the business of teaching C/C++ or Java or Perl or any other programming language. Nor is it about "how to program either". But from what I've been through many upper div CS courses still use C/C++ including 162, 164 184 and EE 122 (yeah, it's not classified under CS but oh well). Some like 170 let you have the option of using Java or whatever you prefer. And 152 uses VHDL. Again, the point of the course isn't how to program. That can easily be learned in a few weeks and are what the CS 9x service courses are for. \_ CS170 almost never allows Java. When did it??!? CS164 is taught in Java once in a while. Wang let you do your 186 project in Java if you prefer. A lot of students use Java for 169 and 160 (classes where you have a choice). 162, 170, and 184 are the most C++ oriented. Oh ya, EE122 usually prohibits Java... at least it has for the past 4 semesters. \_ Java is allowed since "C is too hard... waaaah... I always get segfaults and core dumps and don't know what it means!!" \_ That would be a good point except for the fact that it it isn't true. Java usually isn't allowed in CS170. \_ Wrong. At least for the past 3 semesters, there were no official restrictions on what language to use for the projects. \_ Agree. Nuclear physics, academia = quantum mech, hardcore equations Nuclear physics, industry = cleaning up nuclear waste By the same token, Computer science, academia = hardcore algorithm Computer science, industry = debug other people's code As usual, academia=no money=:(, industry=money=:) \_ having said that, while it is not the purpose of the undergraduate curriculum to teach people languages or how to program, as matter of neccesity, students must learn how to, even if they have to do it on their own. \_ kchang? is that you kchang??? |
2000/2/11-12 [Computer/SW/RevisionControl] UID:17492 Activity:nil |
2/11 Why isn't mehlhaff's motd logger running any more?!?!? \_ Why are you asking this on the motd instead of asking mehlhaff in email? Go away. \_ every once in a while RCS messes up and hangs wanting user input. Sometimes even RCS is lame... -ERic |
2000/2/11-13 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:17493 Activity:high |
2/11 Responce to C, C++, new grad, love for comp sci, love for $$$, 1 word: \_ The smart ones learn to spell or run a spell checker. \_ And how to count words. The dumb and greedy ones work in the industry \_ think C++, Bell Labs. \_ C++ is a perfect example of industry stupidity. The smart ones go back to academia It is as simple as that. \_ the smart, greedy ones go work in 'XYZ labs' \_ Have a cookie, troll. \_ This is not true, as all of the major contributions to cs have been mostly performed by industry. Without AT&T there would be no Unix (BSD or otherwise). Without Sun we would be stuck with RFS. \_ And without Berkeley we wouldn't have the 50 million BSD derivatives, RISC, RAID, IEEE 754, yadayadaya. Incidentally, they all seem to come from Berkeley. So you can conclude that all major contributions come from Berkeley and industry. \_ Stanford is usually given equal credit with UCB for RISC (look at Patterson & Hennssey for example) \_ I would concur that the Berkeley <-> Silicon Valley has created the Academic-Industrial Complex. \_ RISC? RAID? 754? Hardly as important as UNIX. Nice but trivially obvious and would have been done by someone, some where in due time. \_ Two other contributions of industry include OpenFirmware and FireWire. I don't think that academics ever came up with ideas like those. But at the same time, X windows was quite a good idea from academia. Sun would have saddled us with news or openlook or some other stupid interface. \_ Uh, I think most people agree that the X architecture is ... well broken. \_ NeWS was a much better architecture, but X was open source, so it won unfortunately. \_ RIDE BIKE! wins again for no particular reason. One day the 'best' software will win. Not the most politically correct. \_ Not sure I agree. When it came out it was amazingly overweight and bloated, but by modern standards, it's fairly svelt, and it's suited to transparent network redisplay, which I thank X for almost every day. \_ Oh, and there was also that stupid visiting prof who discovered how to matrix multiply in O(n^2.7) instead of O(n^3) which in many implementations turns out to be slower anyway but only wacked out math people like ilyas care about crap like that. \_ Variations on Strassen's algorithm are pushing on O(n^2.3) or something like that now. At any rate, while I am not sure if anyone actually uses Strassen's in practice, I do know that sometimes a tighter upper bound on the running time can make all the difference in the world. Fast Fourier Transforms and Pearl's belief propagation algorithms come to mind as good examples. -- ilyas \_ Strassen's is pointless on today's hardware, where mults are as cheap as adds. In the past, \_ aren't multiplies still slightly more expensive due to the 32 or 64 element carry save adds. i don't think any digital design allows for a 64 level deep logic in one clock cycle for power and performance reasons. and maybe again in the future, Strassen's might actually be useful :) -nick \_ Yawn. Oh, were you saying something? \_ Shove it, asshole. If you're so ignorant as to completely disregard the importance of strict mathematical thinking in CS, go to the industry, bury yer ass in some QA dept and be a mindless drone as much as you wish. Otherwise, have a cookie. -- not ilyas \_ tell us about the stars \_ "Do it my way or you're an ignorant QA drone!!! My way is the only way to the Purity and the Truth! I am CS Tao!!!" Oh uhm, were you saying something? I was distracted by a passing fleck of something more important than your opinion. I think it was a bit of pocket lint floating gently to the floor. \_ Or Andrew. God forbid! \_ or Mach and Kerberos. \_ Do the smart ones go back to academia and GET A FUCKING DICTIONARY or SPELLCHECKER?! --greedy dummy in industry with SPELLCHECKER |
2000/2/11-13 [Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/Security] UID:17494 Activity:very high |
2/11 Why can't they stop all these DoS with a simple TCP source quench? My understanding is that if the incoming data rate passes a certain threshold, you can simply ask the the upstream sender to slow down or drop packets. So why don't the end points just do this so that the systems don't go down? \_ But then if that's true and the upstream sender starts dropping packets, it will still appear the same to the clients that the server has crashed. The effect is the same. Right? -- yuen \_ Sort of, my understanding is that you can do a source quench on one or more source IP's, so when you send a quench the message propogates all the the way back to the source. When the router's closest to the source start dropping, it will look like (from the source's perspective) the destination has gone away. Other source IP's won't be affected. \_ Source quench idea doesn't work necessarily because the idea of source quench assumes that the sending host is co-operative, not hostile. When the sending host has been root compromised, the compromise could change the behavior to make it ignore source quench requests. Also, a lot of the source IPs are being spoofed, so you don't even know who the real sources are. \_ The attacks are a lot more complicated than just "send lots of packets to yahoo". -tom \_ So where can I get a description about how these attacks work. And I'm not looking for the garbage in the general press. \_ http://www.securityfocus.com \_ http://staff.washington.edu/dittrich/misc/tfn.analysis \_ http://staff.washington.edu/dittrich Look in the papers where he analyizes trinoo, tfn and stracheldaht. Best analysis of them I have seen. -ausman \_ while (1) { httpget("yahoo.com"); } And now you know! \_ This is hardly untraceable since your IP will show up in access_log. My understanding is that the attacks have been untraceable, so they must involve header rewritting or session hijack or something. \_ No. _some one's_ IP appears in the log. Who is to say httpget() isn't mushing the IP or using a proxy or doing a million other things? \_ The problem with DoS attacks is not that they're crashing the machines, but that they're preventing normal users from accessing the service. Your suggestion does nothing to change this. \_ If you or your upstream routers block/quench based on the sending rate of a source IP, then you could filter the DoS traffic (high incoming rate) and still allow most normal users (low incoming rate) to connect. I think that is is a L3 analogy to the hammer filters in some ftp servers. \_ Except that many of the attacks consist of a low incoming rate per IP address from thousands of different addresses. Telling real traffic from attack is harder than you think. \_ Pull network cable, sell stock, go home. \_ Wrong order! \_ You want to sell at the high moments before it crashes to make sure you soak it for every last bit. After all, who knows better when it's going down than you? It'll take a while for others to notice. \_ I opened a joint broker account with my girlfriend and placed $1000 in it, telling her that whatever is in it when engagement comes would be the price of her diamond ring. GE didn't go fast enough for her, so we went into Checkpoint Software, and it went from $1000 to $4000 in 4 months, and has been going through the roof since the DoS attacks. Do you think my girlfriend might be involved? \_ She hired me to do it. I get half the account, she gets the other half for her ring. Expect it to continue upwards until you're engaged. \_ I knew she was involved! I once suggested to her that instead of a diamond ring, I can give her a super cool Sun workstation. To my surprise, even though she is a nerdy (but very beautiful, in my opinion) computer science student, she didn't like the idea very much. If you can convince her otherwise, it would be a great favor for me! \_ She is much smarter than you think. Diamonds are forever. Sun workstations become obsolete. She also realizes that you may in fact wish to fondle the sun hardware instead of twiddle her bits. And when the workstation becomes old, Sun allows you to trade it in for a newer model, perhaps giving you certain ideas she finds threatening. |
2000/2/11-12 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:17495 Activity:nil |
2/11 If i have a smooth function of two variables, and want to turn it into a nicely rendered 3d picture, what is a good way to do that? mathematica would get the idea across, but i'd like something that makes a really nice picture with shading and lighting and such like the STM images on the IBM site. any suggestions? \_ http://www.povray.org \_ dude, that kicks ass! thanks! |
2000/2/11 [Uncategorized] UID:17496 Activity:nil 66%like:18076 |
2/11 Have a troll, cookie. |
3/15 |