8/1     http://istpub.berkeley.edu:4201/bcc/Sept_Oct99/avc.students.html
        IS&T once again tries to catch up to what student groups have provided
        for the last 10 years, and only manages to see part of the picture.
        (Last time, they decided all students needed was e-mail and we got
         UCLink.  Just imagine how screwed up this new file server will be.)
         \_ soda [21] wc -l /etc/passwd
               2501 /etc/passwd
            Think of how disasterous that would be to provide 30,000
            traditional style login acounts on a single computer (not to
            mention how expensive the hard disk space would be). The fact
            is that most majors don't require a unix shell account but it
            would be nice for the common Berkeley student to have some unix
            experience.  Unfortunately costs and needs don't always coincide.
                \_  Utterly lame!  If i'm making $20+/hr being a paralegal
                    or a doctor I don't have the time or the inclination to
                    fiddle around with unix man pages.  I am more productive
                    using 1. an interface I'm used to (since I'm not a
                    programmer what do I care about software development) and
                    2. an interface that supports applications ALL MY
                    COLLEGUES IN _MY_ (not YOUR) FIELD USE.  I'd rather spend
                    my time ski-ing or outdoors than fiddling around with
                    .conf files.
                    \_ That's funny.  I have time to do my regular school
                       work, fiddle with .conf files, read the fucking man
                       pages, and go skiing.  And unix is VERY useful for
                       people not in the CS major.  Go ask the people at
                       LBL what they use for physics simulations.
                       \_ dear God, is the bigotry so deep within you that you
                          fail to see the point?  The point is that I AM NOT
                          YOU.  I DO NOT WANT TO BE LIKE YOU.  What if i
                          said I was a pre med student who spend time commuting
                          to various hospitals in the area?  That's more than
                          just regular school work.  Tell me, is unix helpful
                          in my anatomy class?  Is it useful for LabView?
                          is it useful in my philosophy class?  Is it useful
                          when I call my girlfriend up and see what time she'd
                          be ready to go see the opera?
                          Climb out of your cubicle, man.
                        \_ idiocy deleted.
                        \_ fascist nazi.  What gives you the right to delete
                           people's opinions at your whim?  What's next after
                           your ssh tactics?  rm -rf people you don't like?
                    my time with my friends or girlfriend than fiddling around
                    with .conf files. - Publius
                   \_ uh, so why do you care if people who are *not* idiots
                      have Unix shell access?  You can diddle around with
                      Netscape all you want, regardless.  -tom
                    \_ It's about the oppurtunity to do what you want.
                \_ Why use a single computer?  The OCF provided 12,000+ login
                        accounts 5 years ago on a cluster of 1989-era machines
                        (Motorola 68030 & 040 based apollos).  As for disk
                        space, that's what IS&T is proposing to do.
                \_ providing shell access to uclink4, for example, would
                   lower CPU usage (POP is very expensive) and support costs.
                   The support cost argument is bullshit; if you look at
                   the total cost picture, having shell access is much
                   cheaper.  What IST means when they say "it costs less"
                   is "it costs US less". -tom
                   \_ IS&T has a history of ignoring reality, tom.   you
                      should know that.
                   \_ Support costs go up when idiots start wanting to use
                      shells.
                \_ I would say, rather, that they ignore campus concerns in
                   favor of doing things which are convenient for them.  -tom
        \_ They should buy a NetApp.
           \_ NetApp's suck. EMC, dude.
        \_ lets take this to http://ucb.computing.announce (ucb.computing.discussion
           would be better but there is no such group ... yet) --jon
           \_ hence, mail root@agate
              \_ hence the "... yet" --jon
           \_ Okay, now lets take this to http://ucb.computing.discussion --jon