Berkeley CSUA MOTD:1999:March:20 Saturday <Friday>
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1999/3/20 [Uncategorized] UID:15616 Activity:nil
3/19    From http://iVillage.com:
        http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/qas/0,4144,2844~101,00.html
        "Doggy style" is the best!
1999/3/20-22 [Computer/HW/Memory, Computer/HW/CPU, Computer/HW/Display] UID:15617 Activity:insanely high
3/19    Dell anounces it will ship PCs with RedHat Linux preinstalled:
        http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,34036,00.html
        \_ Is there going to be a Linux refund day?
           \_ Why?  Isn't Linux free, unlike Windoze?
              \_ Most of it is free but RedHat throws in a bunch of
                 commercial crap that nobody uses (like a Real media server)
                 so that can charge $40 for it. It also comes w/ a manual.
              \_ RedHat's Lunitux.  And it costs them money to install it.
        \_ Good luck to Dell to get Linux users to buy Dell computers.
           \_ What's wrong with Dell's? They only cost twice as much as a
              computer you build yourself.
                \_ and they're worth more than twice as much.  -tom
                   \_ The only x86 based PC worth paying extra money for
                      performance are IBM's and SGI's.
                   \_ Yeah all that off the shelf hardware magically becomes
                      much more reliable and better performing when installed
                      by a Dell technical genius.
                \_ No, it becomes WARRANTIED, and YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPEND
                   TIME PUTTING IT TOGETHER AND MAKING IT WORK.  -tom
                   \_ My parts are covered.  I think I can afford an hour or
                      two to save $1000 or more.  Anyway, it's a hobby thing
                      and I get *exactly* the hardware I want.  To the person
                      below, who said I was using cheap parts?  What's a cheap
                      part anyway?  They all come from the same factories.
                      Please name a "cheap part" that will be hard to install.
                      You just need a good case.  The rest is generic.
                      \_ Selecting a mother board would be your first
                         problem.  Intel, Asus, SuperMicro, Tyan, etc?
                         For example, I tend not to want to use a
                         model that just came out.  New models tend
                         to have problems fixed only in later revisions.
                         They are usually only tested with brand name
                         components, and even that is not guanranteed.
                         When there is a problem, you are sometimes
                         left wondering whether the problem is with
                         the PCI bus, a BIOS setting, a motherboard
                         switch setting, your network card, a device
                         driver problem, compatibility problem, etc.
                         When going crazy trying to solve a problem,
                         you may unknowingly create a second problem
                         zapping another component with static.
                         I would gladly let Dell do the dog work and
                         quality control for me, and let them iron out
                         all the problems.
                         \_ I don't see MB selection as a "problem".  People,
                            this isn't rocket science.  You're just assembling
                            stock parts.  This isn't the old bad days of Dos
                            2.1 (or even 6.2) where nothing worked and it took
                            hours of fucking with config.sys to get something
                            working.  The parts Dell uses are the same you're
                            getting.  They don't come from a Magic Dell
                            Factory whever everything is always wonderful
                            Factory where everything is always wonderful
                            while your parts are coming from Factory Hell
                            where nothing ever works.  It's the same stuff.
                            The only difference is you won't be paying for
                            parts you don't need/want and can put that money
                            towards things you do.
                            \_ Yes, Dell parts are the same you are
                               getting but they do a couple of things.
                               One, they test and throw out all the
                               defective parts.  Two, they make sure
                               all their components work together
                               well.  Three, they configure and
                               assemble the system for you on a
                               production line.  Four, they test the
                               whole system again after assembly.

                               Go to a computer reseller, open a
                               box of say Diamond Multimedia video
                               cards or Intel motherboards and test
                               them.  The defective rate can be as
                               high as 10 percent.
                                \_ Ok, granting all these things are true,
                           pleasure.
                                   which they're not entirely, even if I got
                                   a defective board, so what?  I return it.
                                   I get a new one.  This isn't for work. It's
                                   a hobbyist home system.  Dell buys in bulk
                                   so they have lower price purchase prices
                                   but their rates aren't *that* much lower,
                                   you *are* paying for them to build it and
                                   run their business and you *don't* get
                                   exactly the parts you want.  If you don't
                                   care about what's really under the hood,
                                   then you are a Dell customer and I hope
                                   the value you feel they're adding is worth
                                   the price you're paying.  Nothing wrong with
                                   that.  It just isn't the best you can do for
                                   your money.
                                   \_ Just make sure you test your
                                      motherboard well before assembling
                                      your system.  I hate taking a
                                      motherboard out.  I also hate
                                      driving one hour to Hi-tech USA
                                      (or whatever) to exchange a part,
                                      or packing stuff and going to the
                                      mail shop.

                                      I do care about what is under the
                                      hood, and Dell components seem
                                      fine to me.

                                      Price advantage of resellers over
                                      brand name systems has been eroding
                                      over the past few years, so I doubt
                                      you can save much money.

                                      You do get to use the exact parts
                                      you want though, and if you need
                                      to tinker with your system in the
                                      future, you already know it
                                      through and through.  Enjoy building
                                      your system.  I love the ones I
                                      built, but would not do it again.

                \_ look, have fun building your box, but you're fooling
                   yourself if you think it makes economic sense.  -tom
                        \_ Whatever Tom.
                \_ Ja, building your own system is a nice learning
                   experience, but after doing it for a few times,
                   you decide that the money saved is not worth the
                   amount of effort you have to put in.  You also
                   realize that the cheaper the components you used,
                   the higher the amount of time you have to put in.
                   \_ Agreed. I've been building my own computers since the
                      486 days. But for my dad, I'm gonna plop down some $$$
                      for a Dell Celeron. It's just not worth the hassle
                      each time.
                        \_ celeron sux. go with amd-k2.
                           \_ On Friday I saw a celeron 300MHz on an
                              overclocked board (66->100Mhz) perform a
                              little less than twice as fast as an AMD-K2
                              300Mhz. Celeron used to suck, but no longer
                              and for $60/chip... do the math fuckwit.
                        \_ I built my first computer before the 8086 days.  I
                           don't get so easily "confused" that I need Dell to
                           pick all my parts for me and charge me more for the
                           pleasure.  For your dad, sure, spend his money.
                           For yourself... don't you care?
                        \_ how much do you care about your time?  I can
                           configure, price and order a Dell system in 5
                           minutes, sitting at my computer.  How much time
                           do you spend contacting 8 different vendors
                           for parts?  How much time do you spend putting
                           it together?  If one of the DIMM slots is bad,
                           how much time do you spend taking the machine
                           apart again, and trying to convince the motherboard
                           manufacturer that it wasn't your DIMMs that were
                           bad?
                           If you're still a student, or some other class of
                           person whose life decisions are more cash-bound
                           than time-bound, that's fine.  If you have a job,
                           and particularly if you're a computer professional
                           in a job that pays good money and probably takes
                           more than 40 hours, why the hell would you spend
                           one minute more of your time than is necessary,
                           to try to wring, at best, minor cash savings out of
                           a purchase?  Seriously, how much does your free
                           time cost, per hour?  -tom
                                \-that's a psb law: "there are two kinds
                                of people. peopel with more $ than time and
                                people with more time than $."
                           \_ It's a hobby, you freak!  How much does your
                              netrek or other gaming time cost per hour?
                                \_ I don't try to claim that netrek is
                                   cost-effective.  Like I said, if you enjoy
                                   building systems, have fun.  -tom
                           \_ Well, nowhere in my answer did I say I was gonna
                              stop buying for myself. Unless a computer maker
                              magically has all the exact parts I want and
                              I don't feel like spending an entire weekend
                              going to all these small stores finding the
                              cheapest prices and constructing it myself.
                           \_ It isn't about money.  I'll spend a few extra
                              bucks _AND_ the time to get _exactly_ the system
                              I want.  _Exactly_ what I want.  Not from their
                              approved list on a web form.  I'm glad the
                              consumer route works for you.
                              \_ Don't some companies, even Dell, allow
                                 you to customize the computer you buy
                                 from them?
                                 \_ On some web form, yes, to a *very* limited
                                    extent.  But if you want that safe feeling
                                    from knowing you have the same computer
                                    Dell has built for 10k others before you,
                                    you can't get that from a highly
                                    customised system.  It isn't possible.
                                    At that point, you're now paying them to
                                    collect and assemble the same random
                                    pile of parts you would've built for
                                    yourself anyway.  You've already done
                                    research and everything else short of
                                    actually popping it all in case.  Might as
                                    well just take that last step yourself.
                                    And btw, I've seen vendor specific
                                    versions of some hardware which require
                                    you to use the vendor drivers.  Generic
                                    drivers don't work.  Upgrading sucks too
                                    because the cases are fucked also.  Caveat
                                    emptor and all that no matter which way
                                    you go.  Dell is not the be-all end-all
                                    perfectly safe answer to hardware buying.
                                    \_ Rather the contradiction with "off
                                       the shelf" parts & "vendor drivers",
                                       no? In any case, buying from a vendor
                                       is all about convenience and no hassle,
                                       especially when you need 20-30
                                       identically set-up computers.
                                        \_ No, it isn't a contradiction.
                                           They're only tweaking the HW to
                                           force you to come to them for future
                                           support and upgrades, not to enhance
                                           it in any way.  Compaq is especially
                                           prone to this and has a lousy system
                                           of storing and categorising patches
                                           to go along with it.  Other than
                                           making sure you're trapped with them
                                           forever, there's nothing better or
                                           different about the HW.  It's just
                                           a scam, not an improvement.
                                           As far as 20-30 goes, go ahead. Buy
                                           Dell.  No one said you should build
                                           20-30 machines from scrap.  The idea
                                           is stupid and you're creating a weak
                                           straw man argument.
1999/3/20 [Uncategorized] UID:15618 Activity:nil
3/19    Get a life, tpc.
1999/3/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:15619 Activity:low
            ,
   __  _.-"` `'-.
  /||\'._ __{}_(    MudCop says, "Cheating is bad for you! Just say NO!"
  ||||  #'--.__\
  |  L.(   ^_\^
  \ .-' |   _ |
  | |   )\___/
  |  \-'`:._]
  \__/;      '-.
  |   |o     __ \
  |   |o     )( |
  |   |o     \/ \
  \_ LifeCop says, "Get a fucking life!  It's only a mud -- who the hell
                    cares, and why do you keep moving this back to the
                    top as if it's in any way important?"
1999/3/20-22 [Uncategorized] UID:15620 Activity:nil
3/19    Imminent death of the Net predicted, film at 11.
        <DEAD>www.bowerbird.com.au/NCL<DEAD>
1999/3/20-22 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:15621 Activity:nil
3/19    Want even more shocking linux news that the one below?
        http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/077/business/Let_s_make_sure_Microsoft_gets_the_Word_on_Linux+.shtml
        \_ How about the fact that Hotmail, owned by M$, runs FreeBSD instead
           of NT on its servers?
        \_ next time, post a summary, as well. microsoft now supposed has an
           email address for people to write and request "word for linux".
           This is unfortunate, if they actually listen. microsloth will
           then crush the entire software application industry.
1999/3/20 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes, Reference/Tax] UID:15622 Activity:nil
3/19    how much you think REI buys the goretex pants for
        b4 sellingit to dumbasses like me for $150 + $12 tax? - tpc

            ,
   __  _.-"` `'-.
  /||\'._ __{}_(    MudCop says, "Cheating is bad for you! Just say NO!"
  ||||  #'--.__\
  |  L.(   ^_\^
  \ .-' |   _ |
  | |   )\___/
  |  \-'`:._]
  \__/;      '-.
  |   |o     __ \
  |   |o     )( |
  |   |o     \/ \
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:1999:March:20 Saturday <Friday>