Berkeley CSUA MOTD:1998:August:07 Friday <Saturday>
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1998/8/7-11/15 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:14424 Activity:nil
07/07   New soda mail relay policy! For details: /csua/adm/doc/mail-relay
1998/8/7-8 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:14425 Activity:insanely high
8/7     http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1998/08/02/BUSINESS13169.dtl
        \_ ausman's quoted!
           \_ umm doesn't he know the author of that articla (reb eisenberg)
             personally?  This is more of a logrolling thing than anything,
             and eisenberg's articles are usually pretty fatuous.  But atleast
             she actually _quotes_ a human being in this one...
        \_ Linux maybe easy to install for soda geeks, but not for
           casual users.  The learning curve of Linux is too steep
           for casual users.  Why would my grandma want to know about
           file permissions and how to recompile the kernel when a
           new device is installed?  I'd like to see an alternative to
           M$, but Linux at current stage just wont do it in the
           ease of use department.
        \_ The Linux OS is actually much simpler than the Win95 OS.  It's
           overall structure may be somewhat difficult to understand at
           first but when you compare it to Windows 95 it's really not
           bad.  The one thing that Linux lacks is a fully developed front
           end so doing any kind of configuration requires a geek brain.
           Windows, on the other hand, has such a fully developed front
           end that it covers up the horrible complexity of the OS.
           \_ The point made at the forum (yes I was there) was that most
              Windows users have *never* installed the OS... It came
              preinstalled on their machines. I installed RedHat 5.1 recently
              and it was so simple my iguana could do it.  As for drivers,
              hello, Linux lets you compile things as modules that can be
              inserted into the kernel and removed at run time with no
              trouble.  I'm sure it won't be long before RedHat automates
              getting and compiling new driver modules as root a reality...
              It's pretty likely that people will never have to be root on
              their own systems unless they want to be. -mogul
              \_ My grandmother has conceptual difficulty with the concept
                 that moving the mouse causes the virtual pointer on the
                 screen to move.  What seems obvious to you, is not so to the
                 average user.  Kernel?  Drivers?  Modules?  Compile?  Root?
                 Explain *that* to my grandmother.  Good luck in Linuxland.
                 Until you've got a Linux system my grandmother can deal with
                 Linux won't be any sort of serious home market competition.
                 \_ Hey motherfucker, *my* grandmother was Admiral Grace
                    Murray Hopper's secret lesbian lover on-and-off throughout
                    the 1950s.  *She* invented COBOL, and that bitch Hopper
                    stole it from her and took all the credit.  She got a
                    UNIVAC running with a soldering iron and a bootstrap
                    paper tape (punched by hand, with a pencil, guessing
                    where the holes should be) just in time for it to predict
                    that Eisenhower would win the Presidential election on
                    national TV.  *My* grandmother *laughs* at Windows, saying
                    that it's only fit for people who drool on themselves.
                    JUST BECAUSE YOUR GRANDMOTHER IS "SPECIAL", DON'T EXPECT
                    THAT EVERY OTHER SINGLE DAMN ELDERLY PERSON IN AMERICA IS
                    TECHNICAL IMBECILE.  THANK YOU.
                    A TECHNICAL IMBECILE.  THANK YOU.
                    \_ Yep, exactly.  A univac and soldering iron is just as
                       far from real people as linux.  Thanks for helping to
                       make my point.
                 \_ STUPID SERIES OF BRAINLESS FLAMES DELETED
                 \_ My grandmother was scared of the point-and-shoot camera
                    we gave her for Christmas (total controls: on/off switch,
                    "take picture" button) and wanted us to take it back
                    because she was afraid she'd never be able to learn how to
                    use it.  Obviously, she'll never become a Windows user,
                    either -- therefore, Windows can never succeed in the
                    commercial marketplace!  QED.  Using "my grandmother can't
                    \_ Your grandmother is a bonehead.  What more is there?
                       The world will be a better place when the old bag is
                       dead and the rest of us can move on without her.
                           don't have the time to wait for hackers to write the
                    do this" is a boneheaded metric.
                    \_ STUPID BRAINLESS FLAME DELETED
              \_ Hmmm...does an average user know what "compiling a new driver"
                 is?  My sister has no concept of a hard disk, memory or cpu.
                 Some of my co-workers (who are EE) think hard disk and memory
                 are the same thing and use those terms interchangeably.
                 \_ I've had to deal with the RAM/HD thing before too.  After
                    10 minutes of careful explanation, they still didn't get
                    it.  Let's get real here, folks, the vast majority of
                    people don't think Windows is easy.  Forget any sort of
                    unix until it's as easy, or easier to install,use,
                    configure, upgrade, patch, etc, as windows is today.
                    \_ For what it's worth I think that anyone who likes
                       computers (as opposed to just tolerating them) can
                       install and run Linux successfully. By the way, I
                       know a lot of grandfathers who have had no trouble
                       installing Linux. Many grandfathers are in their
                       \_ Keep the discrimination bullshit off the motd.  I
                          know you're inundated with that crap at Cal everyday
                          but seriously, it has no place outside your save
                          the whales sociology classes.
                          the whales sociology classes.  The typical grand
                          father outside a trailer park is in his 60s or
                          older.  Unlike your grandfather he didn't impregnate
                          his own daughter to produce his own son/grandson.
                          \_ Fuck off, anonymous asshole. --dim
                                \_ oooh, aaah, your sharp wit has cut me to
                                   the bone! oh help me! help help!  Your
                                   genetic "purity" is showing through.
                                   \_ Fuck off, anonymous asshole. --dim
                                        \_ Fuck off, you purified asshole.
                       40's (although I know some in their 60's running
                       Linux). Why discriminate based on age? --dim
                        \_ stupid series of brainless flames deleted.
        \_ Take a look at redhat 5.1.  If you can't install that, you
           probably can't program your VCR's clock either.  -jor
           Why are we still talking about Sunday's paper, anyway?
           \_ I can't program my VCR's clock but I can program in 5 major
              languages, multiple OS experience, write client/server apps,
              etc, etc.  What's your point?  My computer isn't a VCR.
        \_ It would be nice if other hardware vendors would support it.
           Device drivers are typically 6 months behind.
                \_ What for?  Hackers can just deal or write their own drivers
                   and it's too hard for the home market.
                        \_ First of all, I am not a hacker.  Secondly, I
                           don't the time to wait for hackers to write the
                           drivers.  Thirdly, it's to time consuming to search
                           for drivers that hackers wrote.
                           \_ Yes, and why should the companies waste their
                              time writing drivers for all 6 of their linux
                              customers when they could make some real money
                              from their potentially millions of windows
                              customers?  You have 3 choices: 1)use windows,
                              2)write your own drivers, 3)just deal with the
                              fact that you're not using a consumer level OS
                              and all that goes with it.  It's a pure fantasy
                              to think linux will get new drivers at the same
                              rate as windows users.  Who gives a flying fuck
                              about a zero income producing market?
                                \_ you are a dumb fuck.  gnu software is a
                                   zero income market because PEOPLE DON'T
                                   CHARGE FOR THEM not because they're
                                   \_ My OS user base has grown %100 in the
                                      last 5 minutes.  We went from 1 user to
                                      2.  Lesson: don't use statistics to lie.
                                      Growth is meaningless.  Only current and
                                      immediate future absolute figures count.
                                      Your lack of concern for income is one
                                      reason you'll never manage anything but
                                      your linux box and your dog house and
                                      I'll bet your dog goes on strike in the
                                      first 6 weeks.
                                   inferior.
                                \_ i give a flying fuck about a zero
                          income market considering that they make real
                                   OS's.  Windows may dominate now but
                        \_ Linux is s0 k-rad it kan f1t en 2kay!!!1112!@!@11
                                   Linux has the fastest growing user base
                                   in the OS market.  It is expected to
                                   soon outdo MacOS.
                                   \_ STUPID BRAINLESS FLAME DELETED
        \_ The article mentions that Linux was ported to the Palm
           Pilot.  infoP?
           \_ check recent issues of MicroTimes/Computer Currents
              (within the last month or two); I saw an article there
              on the porting project, but I don't recall when.  -goetz
                \_ How???  PalmPilot can hold only like 2MB of ram/storage.
                        \_ Linux is s0 k-rad it kan fit en 2kay!!!1112!@!@11
                   \_ I know someone running it on a PalmPilot. It's
                      pretty cool. --dim
                        \_ "cool" is a good metric.  How about "useful"?
        \_ a multiuser OS in the hand of a clueless(which the majority
           of the casual users are) is more vulnerable security wise
           than an OS designed with clueless user in mind(Windoze).
           Do those Linux distributors have a version with most
           vulnerable service turned off?
        \_ Who is going to tell my grandmother she needs a security patch
           later, much less help her install it and make sure it's done?
           Who will help her install MSWord on her Linux box?
           \_ Who will tell your grandmother that she needs a new version of
              MSIE or Netscape or Eudora because of insecurities in the
              current version?  Who will help her install MSWord on her
              Win<xx> box?  If your grandmother falls in the forest and
              there is nobody around to hear it, does she still make a
              sound?  All these are questions that you must answer before
              you reach the path to true enlightenment.
              \_ I answered this but it was deleted: anyone who can double
                 click the SETUP.EXE icon will do it for her.  This means
                 tech support from anyone, the kid who cuts her grass, a
                 friendly neighbor, the plumber who fixed her broken pipe
                 last week.  None of those people is going to have a friggin
                 clue about linux and rightly so.  Trying to claim windows is
                 as uncommon or hard to use as linux is beyond stupid.  That
                 sort of comment puts you well into the realms of the self
                 deluded and blind.
1998/8/7-9 [Uncategorized] UID:14426 Activity:nil
8/7     Anyone know anything aobut H. 323 gateways and programs that allow
        you to call a phone over an internet connection?  Is it possible
        to call phones with MS NetMeeting (it has H. 323 support)?
        \_ There are services like that I heard, but they all charge
           some amount of money.
                \_ GASP!
1998/8/7-8 [Computer/Networking] UID:14427 Activity:kinda low
8/6     In linux what is the device name to read and write to and from
        tcp/ip?
        \_ There is no IP or Ethernet raw device, like on some other Unix
           systems.  Typically you would use socket calls (accept(2),
           connect(2), etc.); there is a socket type called SOCK_RAW,
           which lets you use some network facilities more directly.
           \_ I thought all I/O traffic goes through /dev/* ?  Then what
              does accept(2) and connect(2) read and write to?
              \_ They don't read(2) or write(2) to anything; they are just
                 their own system calls that act on kernel data structures
                 called sockets.  /dev is not involved here.
        \_ My grandmother knew this already.
                 called sockets.  /dev is not involved here.
        \_ My grandmother knew this already.
1998/8/7-8 [Uncategorized] UID:14428 Activity:nil
8/6     Microsoft Campus in Mountain View.
        \_ TP! TP! TP! TP! TP!
           \_ Follow the Berkeley tradition bud.  Send a mail bomb like
              all the crazy people here.
1998/8/7-8 [Uncategorized] UID:14429 Activity:nil
8/6     http://www.jailbabes.com
        \_ Don't post this!  No one else can write to my girlfriends!
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:1998:August:07 Friday <Saturday>